Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Perception of the PTG from non members

Hi Ryan, if you focused on temperament setting, with perhaps someone to guide you, you could learn to do set a reasonable temperament in a short time. ETD's can and do break down, so an aural temperament is a good thing to have in your tool kit. That is why it's on the tuning test.

I'm sorry, with all due respect, I just don't see the point of learning to set a temperament by ear. Bob, look at it in this context ...Yes, my truck does break down from time to time, but I don't resort to riding a horse for the fear that my truck might not get me where I'm going. The above process that TunerJeff describes seems way too complicated and would be less stable than tuning unisons as you go and applying equal tension across the piano. What's most important is how the piano ends up sounding in the end and if the customer is happy. Using Tunelab and the EBVT3 layered on top of the stretch that Tunelab calculates leave a GREAT sounding piano. Many of my new customers tell me that their piano has NEVER sounded that good. I have more business that I can keep up with. If you would like to read some of the testimonials of my customers, take a look at my website.

Ryan, I can see your point of view, and I often use Tunelab myself to do the first pass on temperaments and pitch raises. I am not against allowing people to test by tuning the whole piano the way they normally tune, aural or ETD, but I believe there may be standardization issues by testing that way. I can tell you that sometimes an ETD does not calculate a good tuning - and when that happens, it's nice to pick that up before finishing the whole piano, and realizing too late there is an error. If I'm fine tuning by ETD (which I rarely do), I like to check aurally how things are tuning up.

Having said that, there are probably a bunch of tuners who share your opinion and I respect that. In fact, I've made the suggestion on these forums to have two types of RPT, and Aural RPT who tested by ear only, and an RPT who tested by ETD only. But that is not without issues of it's own.

When I learned to tune, ETD's were not very common, so we all learned aurally. I had to re-learn techniques when I got my first ETD only five years ago. Like the ability to tune an aural temperament, my ETD is another tool at my disposal.

Even if you were able to pass the tuning tests via ETD only, I'll bet at some point down the road, curiosity and/or boredom would cause you to explore tuning by ear.

You could try this option:

1. Have someone spend an hour or two with you on temperament setting
2. For the next week, set a quick temperament by ear, then correct it with Tune lab
3. Re-visit temperament setting with your mentor
4. Do the same as # 2
5. Repeat # 1 and # 2 till you have confidence in your temperament, then take the tuning test.

BTW, Ryan, nice website!

Bob, thanks for the nice response. Thank you too for not being condescending like others have been on here to me before. It just seems like a lot of extra work that I really don't have time to do. In just the short time that I posted the last post, I went on Facebook to see what was going on and picked up two more tunings! WOW! When my mentor told me that there were enough neglected pianos here in the Mineral Area to keep four tuners busy full-time, I thought he was kidding...I'm seeing now that he really wasn't. Maybe someday when I get caught up I will attempt to tune a temperament aurally.

Thanks again.

Ryan, I'm glad to hear of another TuneLab user! It's a very good program and reasonably priced. I've been using it now for about 10 years I think. I've been tuning now going on 17 years and I've never had a break down of my ETD. (I had a Yamaha PT100 before I got TuneLab.) Maybe it's a lifestyle thing. I'm just always keeping an eye on my devices, making sure they're charged up and ready to go. I've got a backup device too. My ETD is also my mp3 player so I have it plugged in in my car when I'm not using it.

When it comes to the temperament thing it's a losing battle. You have lots of happy customers and to me that's the bottom line. In the PTG this would be heresy but in my mind it's just pianos we're talking about. We're not doing brain surgery. At least that's the world I live in. I'll leave the "high powered" tunings to someone else, although I do tune for a couple of recording studios and have had no complaints.

Great web site Ryan! Take a look at mine when you get a chance.

That's quite correct. I've been MORE than welcomed and Jane and I warmly received at multiple PTG events...convention to meetings, its a great group of people and I can't say enough about PTG's mission and excellence.

FWIW

Rick

I don't know why I became an associate of PTG. May be for the 'status' of being member. But I quite appreciate the effort of PTG put to promote tuning technique. If there is a similar organization here, I will definitely support it. But its too good to become true.

ETD is also heresy in my country, and also look down by other tuners.

I like the FAQ of your web site. Could I use your FAQ with translation to Chinese?

I quit appreciate Ron's philosophy.

I also like Ryan's facebook page.

I was a full member in the seventies, and left with something “undone”, a black mark if you will. A couple of years ago I contacted the head office asking what would need to be done to clear up this problem. All I got back from them was an old issue of the journal and an application for membership. What else was I to think, but they wanted my money before my problem was worth considering?

The new testing procedure, and especially the preparation for it, speaks volumes about the PTG. It is like a bunch of hoops to jump through that prove that you know how to jump through hoops! Sure you can approach the testing with the more appropriate attitude of “How can I improve my skills?”, but that is not how it is set up.

And yet it is a great source of information that is available to the public for only a small amount more than to members, and I have made use of it. That also speaks volumes about the PTG. So I have mixed feelings.

I don't have anything against the Guild. I was a true Guild man "back in the day!'

I don't agree on having to be retested though to get back in, as I think that's redundant and a money grab. If you've passed the tuning test, you can pass the tuning test; no need for retesting. That's the only thing that keeps me from jumping back in. As far as the general public and being in business are concerned, I think being a member of BBB in good standing is far more important.

I am surprised that in the U.S. there are no alternative guilds or similar piano technician organizations offered other than the PTG. (I'm not mentioning the MTA because I beleive anyone can join that if you simply pay the enrolment fee). In Canada we have the Canadian Association of Piano Technicians (CAPT) and the Ontario Guild of Piano Technicians (OGPT). For networking and continued education, seminars are available each year at the UWO for any tech who is interested (there is a fee but no membership dues).

Although networking does have its benefits if one is cordially "accepted" into the local group, in areas of high competition amongst techs, the unfortunate reality often is that a new tech is simply seen as another guest pulling up a chair to a sparsly set table.

Loren,

What do you mean by BBB?

Better Business Bureau.

I am not sure I understand. Is there such a Bureau?

Yes, in the US.

Rafael:

It is not a government Bureau.

Ah, ok now I see my misunderstanding! Yes, it's a private bureau that businesses voluntarily belong to.

I hesitated to respond to this topic because of course, it is asking for non-members perspectives. I have been a member and RPT for 29 years and my advocacy of PTG is well known. However, there certainly are issues that I do not like which come up between certain members. They sometimes involve far more people than they should.

There are a number of misconceptions that I have seen by some non-members. PTG is open to literally anyone who wishes to join. The only exception is that if members of a local Chapter raise an objection, the Home Office will review the application and there are two committees who decide is there are grounds to deny membership. This is rarely done as PTG does not want to be sued for discrimination.

There used to be several categories of members. Those who had passed the tests were known simultaneously as Registered Craftsmen, Craftsmen, Registered Tuner-Technicians and the initials, RTT. On a motion brought up in the council meeting, all of those former titles became Registered Piano Technician or the initials, RPT. I forget the year, exactly but I think it was 1989 or 1990.

Also, I think it was 1985 or 1986 that all other categories were reduced to the title, Associate Member. Most people liked those changes but others clearly did not. Nearly every year since then, there have been proposals to re-create another kind of category. They have always been defeated in Council.

One has to realize that whatever rules or standards there are in PTG are determined by its Council. Only RPT's can be Council Members. They are elected by their Chapters. So, the Home Office and the Board (President, Vice-President, Secretary-Treasurer and all of the Regional Vice-Presidents) do not make the rules or create the standards, only Council does. The board and committees may make recommendations and proposals but it is up to the Council to approve them.

So, the testing procedures have been determined by PTG members themselves, through Council. Changes in testing procedures and standards have taken place over the years but only upon proposals which have been debated in Council and approved by Council.

Surely the issue of whether any aural tuning requirement should still be necessary has come up. Time and again, the majority opinion has maintained that a minimum demonstration of aural tuning proficiency must be one of the requirements of the RPT status. Some think that to only have to tune one string of a two octave span is far too easy. Obviously for those who cannot do it, me may as well ask them to climb Mt. Everest.

I have also been a tuning examiner for 21 years, so I have witnessed many exams and helped many people prepare for them. I have seen some very outstanding technicians who learned very well and quickly. I've seen more average types who get through the process but not easily. I have, of course seen technicians who try as they might, they never could master the skills.

I totally agree with what Tuner Jeff and Bob have said. Many people have said that one needs first to want to be an RPT for one's own personal benefit and sense of accomplishment. The Council decided that only RPT's will be listed publicly. Agree or disagree, like it or not, consider it fair or not, those are the rules that PTG RPT members decided upon. Therefore, if you think that being an RPT would benefit you personally, you know what you'll have to do. No amount of complaining is going to change that.

At one time, I personally thought that the aural tuning requirement was no longer necessary but over time, I have reversed my opinion on that. I have seen what working toward that goal has done for many technicians. You may not be able to understand what the benefit is unless you go through the process.

In 2003, I set out to try to help technicians whose only real obstacle was tuning 24 notes by ear. They could do everything else but not that. I recalled all of the various books I have on tuning. I decided to re-think the process and see if I could make a difference and I did for many people.

The latest innovation has been the Equal Temperament via Marpurg sequence. It has helped dozens of technicians pass that exam when all other methods had failed. I never met anyone who "couldn't hear beats". There may be some but I've never met them. It's not about "counting beats". I never count beats, I compare one interval to another. I also don't tune in thirds or teach people to tune in thirds as many people mistakenly believe.

The articles and videos are on my website. I can give virtual tuning tutoring to anyone, anywhere in the world thru the use of a web cam and a messenger service like Yahoo, MSN or Skype. To those wanting to learn to tune a two octave range aurally for the purposes of passing the tuning exam, I offer my expertise free of charge. All you have to do is contact me about it, have a piano and a web cam and I'm yours for the asking.

I find this whole discussion quite fascinating. Please, non members, continue! It's interesting!

In a former post in this thread I established that I don't like meetings. I don't learn well that way. I work alone, and I learn best on my own (alone). That being said, I realize that many folks like to schooze and network, and I'm glad I paid 40 years worth of dues to help a good organization and give a boost to the social set.

Thanks to Bill Bremmer's ET via Marpurg (PTG Video), I've modified and streamlined my "Both Ways from the Middle"aural temperament and found some new checks for smoothing out nasty little spinets.

One year I sat down and tried to read through the bylaws. Yikes!

I saw a quote on the bulletin board of a high school where I was tuning and servicing multiple pianos for the solo & ensemble contest season: "Don't let what you can't do get in the way of what you can".

I think I can understand why some PTG drop outs think it is unfair to have to go all through the testing again to regain RPT status. Personally, I would not have a problem with it. Indeed, some members think testing should be required after a period of say, 10 years. Some people do slack off in their skills. After all, RPT is supposed to represent a certain level of competence. There were those who felt that many of the members who were "grandfathered" in as RPT's way back when were not competent enough. Time cured that problem. Most of them have retired or passed away by now.

It all boils down to having to draw the line somewhere. Otherwise, members could drop in an out of the organization and still retain the status that the rest of us not only earned but pay to maintain. Many people complain about the high cost of dues. A new member must pay an initiation fee of $150. When I joined, it was $30 but that was also nearly 30 years ago, so $30 meant more then than it does today. The exam fees also doubled from $180 to $360. Annual dues go up nearly every year. They are now at $255 plus Chapter dues which for me brings it to $305. I also make a voluntary contribution of $100 to the PTG Foundation, so I kick in a good chunk of change every year to the organization. One would easily spend $2000 attending the annual convention.

For a young person just starting out, the tools and whatever training course or school may have cost and all those expenses for PTG really add up. Most of the active members who are successful aren't concerned about those expenses but I can see how others who may be struggling would be.

There are ways to mitigate some of the expenses. A person who has passed the written exam and either the tuning or technical exam can apply to the Foundation for a scholarship. The convention registration and the remaining exam fee are paid. One member from my Chapter did this and I asked my aunt who lives in Kansas City if she would host him and his wife so they would not have the hotel expenses. She gladly obliged.

Some people who attend get room mates to cut the hotel bill. Some stay in less expensive hotels or motels near by, some find a camping place near to the city that hosts the convention. I have also known people who have a religious affiliation who have found hosts of their persuasion in the city where the convention is held. It is also possible for a Chapter to sponsor a member. The year after hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans, one technician there lost everything but his chapter and the PTG foundation put him on his feet again and provided the testing, so he became an RPT and is now doing well.

I saw one comment on here and I dealt with another individual once who felt that PTG was only trying to make money off of him. Let me make it clear to anyone who may feel that way that it is not true. PTG is a not for profit organization. All who present classes at the conventions and seminars do not get a fee for what they do. The examiners also do not get any of the fee paid by the examinee. there are some who feel that examiners should be pair and that the fees are way too low. However, since the fees were doubled, the number of people clamoring to take exams has dropped off considerably.

Jeff D., whatever issue you had with PTG or if you felt they had an issue with you, I am not sure from what you say. If you felt wronged at some point, I am sure no one remembers a thing about it now and would only welcome you again as a return member. If, however, you committed some kind of breach of its Code of Ethics, that could still be an issue but unless anyone brings it up, there would be no problem.

You have said in the past that you were not comfortable in large gatherings and such. Since you are a part time technician, even the Associate member category is hardly worth paying for. From what I understand, you are a Journal subscriber. Also, any of PTG's publications and Journal on CD-ROM are available to non-members. Non-members can also attend any convention or seminar if they wish. They pay high rates for these than members do but for certain people, that is a level of participation that seems most appropriate and it is welcomed by PTG.