Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Isn't Steinway the One to beat?

I'm asking honestly...I am not a piano connoisseur, but have heard beautiful music played on Steinway grands...and many other instruments as well. So, as I am taking this piano buying journey, I'm wondering...Is Steinway still the top dog?

Because while I understand Steinway's lesser children (Boston and Essex) are outsourced to Japan and China, and many opinions abound I'm sure, are they not still Steinway designs and built to the Steinway standards? Does that give them an advantage over other Asian made pianos?

Any thoughts? Thx!

You start out talking about Steinway, but then in your second paragraph it sounds like you're interested in Boston and Essex. I'm not sure what you're asking.

Steinway is still the most prestigious brand of piano in the world. In terms of recognition and general respect (not exactly the same as prestige) Yamaha is probably the second.

Boston and Essex are some of many brands that contest the mid-level and more entry-level markets. They are not Steinways. And in their respective market segments, these brands don't dominate the way Steinway does among the more expensive pianos.

To answer your initial question, Steinway is still top-dog in terms of market share. No one single manufacturer comes close in terms of production, and this helps Steinway maintain a near-monopoly in the high-end/institutional market. This does not mean that they build pianos to a higher standard than other prestigious makers.

Boston and Essex are not Steinways. They are completely different designs, built to different standards for different purposes. In terms of objective build quality, they really aren't any better than their respective competitors, but some will like the way they sound and play when compared to others.

For a very long time, Steinway worked hard to build up a brand name. They also built and still build excellent pianos. As for being the top dog, a good case can be made for some other makes such as Stewart & Sons, Fazioli, Boesendorfer, and a lot of people will want to add to or subtract from that list.

Boston and Essex are what Steinway did to get into the mass market. It's as if Rolls Royce also owned the Datsun and Kia brand names.

suschifor5 - I was in the same sutuation as you now are a few months ago. I got the yearning for an acoustic piano after playing a digital for a couple of years. I went to a couple of dealers and found I liked the sound of the freshly prepped brand new Steinway M the best. It just seemed to me to have the most (for lack of a better term) piano-eey sound. But, at nearly $70,000, it was definitely out of my price range. I ended up buying a Ritmuller GH-170R for well under $12,000 including tax.

Moral of the Story: If you're out shopping for a Toyota Corolla, you might not want to stop at the Rolls-Royce dealership, even if you just want to play with those nice pull-out umbrellas that are embedded in the rear doors! It can be somewhat discouraging!

It's like I was hoping for this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hdlz6QzyAVA

but I ended up with this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuycKKYDrpY&feature=related

Not quite the same, but gets the job done!

Right, I think I understand the "breaking into the mid-market" thing for the Steinway company, but it is my understanding that Boston and Essex are designed by Steinway, and built to its standard with oversight by Steinway people... Fine seems to place Boston, at least, in that upper tier of Pro grade pianos. I'm wondering if the Steinway fingerprint on the Boston and Essex is a compelling reason to place them above other grands in the respective/similar categories while I'm compiling my list of grands to try....

In response to your post above: no.

The marketing department would have you believe otherwise, yes.
The Boston, Yamaha, and Kawai models I've played feel and sound different from each other. They're priced somewhat similarly. They're built well. They all have pretty well developed dealer networks in the US.

I'm curious to know how people have voted with their checkbooks in this oft-mentioned version of the "Pepsi Challenge" - any industry folks on the retail side want to quote some recent sales numbers? I'm guessing the Boston is a distant third in the US market. (but I still would consider one if shopping this market segment)

IMO...NO!

Steinway would certainly like you to, but there are certainly other very good pianos out there.

There is no doubt that most Steinway scale designs are excellent and their sound has come to be accepted as THE piano sound simply because S&S dominates the concert and recording market. Up until just a few years ago Steinway's manufacturing was inconsistent and individual pianos could be great or mediocre. This could be referred to as their "resting on laurels" period. In addition Steinway offered unprepped instruments to dealers at a lower price with the assumption that dealers would do the prep (not always the case). In recent years S&S has made an effort to improve manufacturing quality, but the unprepped instruments are still offered. I haven't shopped Steinways any time recently other than playing a few notes at my local dealer (who is quite good at dealer prep). Selecting a Steinway can be a bit like playing the lottery, you hope you get lucky (or plan to use it as furniture and not as a musical instrument).

There are many threads on this subject on this forum; I am sure that the OP could easily find them if he or she wants additional reading on the matter.

The short answers, in my opinion, and based on the assumption that the OP is talking about NY Steinway: Boston and Essex pianos are not Steinways. Steinway would like customers to think that they are, but they are not. They are not built by Steinway and they don't sound like Steinways. There are many competitors for both Boston and Essex that are at least as good (if not better) and cost less than either brand at their respective price points.

Steinway is the top dog in market share. Being first in market share does not make one the top in quality (cf. GM). While Steinway is not comparable to GM, they are not the top dog in piano quality. There are other brands--Bosendorfer, Bechstein, and Fazioli, to name three--that can claim higher rankings and quality than Steinway. There are more brands that are fully comparable to Steinway (like Mason & Hamlin) and that also cost less than Steinways.

Steinway is the best in at least one respect: Steinway unquestionably has the most effective publicity and marketing programs of any piano brand. When I bought a piano I purchased it based on the piano, however, and not on advertising and marketing. Needless to say from the above post, I did not buy a Steinway. They can be great pianos, but they did not speak to me the way my beloved Mason & Hamlin did.

At least this is what I think. I know that Steinway has devoted fans, I just do not happen to be one of them.

I suspect that one "pays for the name" as well as the quality that the name has (deservedly) earned.

This may be where the earned reputation may diverge from what I can reasonably afford and accommodate in a mere "House".

Concert Grands from any particular maker are probably more different to their Baby Grands than say M&H are to Yamahas.
I really don't know how relevant the Steinway reputation on LARGE pianos is to mere "house size" pianos.
Have they focused on making the best possible "house scale" pianos, or only the best possible "concert hall scale" pianos ?

Drooling over a 9ft (plus ?) concert grand is one thing, assuming that the quality implied by the brand name in that size piano necessarily carries to their 6 ft (and under) babies may be erroneous.

My question is more; "Which manufacturer builds the best piano in a size that I can accommodate and at a price that I can afford ?" (without too much budget stretch).

To me it means nothing that a car has "Cadillac" on the hood, it is after all only a Chevrolet with a different trim level.

PS There is a 5ft 7in "Steinway" locally available for $14K, described only as 1980 black satin.
It may be "worth it", it may not.
Browsing other pianos there it does SEEM that the name carries a premium.

To answer the original question: No.

However if you enjoy the Boston more than others, by all means buy it. It will hold up in a home just fine.



Hmmm... This statement could be misleading. The times have changed dramatically over the past decade. The most recent numbers I can quote are from 2010, but Steinway produced under 900 grand pianos for all of North America that year. Since it is easy let's compare them to other "Tier 2" pianos. It is true that no other "Tier 2" piano beat that number, but add their North American distribution numbers together and they dwarf Steinway's production. That is without looking at the "Tier 1" brands.

Also, there are many institutions that are looking beyond Steinway for instruments, in spite of the heavy "All-Steinway" marketing. IU - Bloomington, Arizona State University, and The Juilliard School come to mind as recent purchasers of other pianos.

The last thing I want is for Steinway to go out of business. They are a strong brand and deserve to be in the marketplace, but they do not have the same control that did at one time.

My 2 cents,

I see what you're saying. Good points to bring up! However, there are still decades and decades worth of Steinways out in the field, so we are still far more likely to run across one of these than we are some other top-tier brand, especially in institutions. That is what I meant.

Yes, that's my question too...so, what's the answer for the 5'4" grands in the $12k to $15K price range?

I appreciate the feedback on this string, thanks much! I like the instruments I've played in the Steinway family; I just needed to get the pulse of the discussion. Good stuff!

The answer is:
The one you like the sound of and performance of most!!!!

And it's the truth - Every manufacturer builds pianos that they think are the best. I think most would agree that Steinway's small entry (the model S) is not their best design or representative of performance that their other instruments have achieved. I also think it's fair to say that the recent improvements in small grands (those under 5'6) is nothing short of amazing. I don't think the Japanese manufacturers have done as well in this niche as their Chinese and Korean competitors. The small piano entries from Young Chang (Weber) Samick (Knabe), Hailun, Pearl River (Ritmüller, Kayserburg) and others IMHO easily exceeds the sound and performance quality of entries from Yamaha, Kawai and even Steinway.

AND, many of these new instruments have advanced engineered soundboards that not only produce wonderful tonal properties (superior to less expensive solid boards - Hi DEL!), but increase tuning stability, are better for the environment, and will hold up in extreme climate conditions.

In short, do some listening and less reading

@master88er: Your comments ring true...and I would LOVE to do some listening...where have all the pianos gone??! LOL Finding dealers with these instruments in stock is a sticky wicket...finding dealers at all can be. I long for the days when I lived in southern CA!! You are in the SF area...we're hoping to relocate to northern CA (again) in the near future...I just don't want to wait that long to get a good instrument...of course, moving the piano is a whole other can of worms!

>Is Steinway still the top dog?

I think it's the best known brand. But I slightly prefer Grotrian.

Furthermore, as master88er says. Go listen and play them. IMHO there is no other way to determine which one's for you.

sushi, unfortunately there just aren't a lot of pianos to choose from in the Northern Idaho/Eastern Washington market. You would be well served to take some time and go to Seattle and try some pianos there to get a wider variety of choices.

Dan

That is part of the plan, thanks!

This is all new to me, but as a businessman I don't get it. How could a company that relies so heavily on its reputation for its perceived characteristic sound quality, ship products that have never been tested to produce that sound quality (never prepped in factory), and then rely on random technicians to complete the manufacturing and quality control processes? Then the pianos may or may not be able to achieve the company's standards (either because of untested defects in the piano or because of the technicians inability)? Yet the company has no interest in its products performance?

If true, it says to me the company has no real standards of its own, which seems ludicrous and unbelievable to me from a business point of view. Have any Steinway dealers confirmed they can or are buying untested (unprepped) pianos from Steinway? I just can't understand how this could be true.