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Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed... [Re: Julian_] #1856466
03/05/12 09:32 AM
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Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed... [Re: RaindropPrelude] #1856479
03/05/12 09:49 AM
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Jack,

I can't find it in your blog either. Am I missing something? I remember reading it at the time this thread began (in December 2010).

P.S. It's refreshing to encounter people who don't feel the need for anonymity. I know all the usual arguments why some prefer the avatar, and I respect those reasons. But I still find the occasional named person refreshing.

Last edited by Piano*Dad; 03/05/12 09:51 AM. Reason: added P.S.
Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed... [Re: Piano*Dad] #1856500
03/05/12 10:31 AM
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Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed... [Re: argerichfan] #1856501
03/05/12 10:34 AM
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Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed... [Re: RaindropPrelude] #1856517
03/05/12 11:15 AM
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It's amazing how terrible someone's attitude can be, and we're just talking about piano-related issues!

Jack, I got a chance to read your post before and let me say what a harrowing experience it must have been. I'm so glad you've recovered and are able to make amazing music! I especially love your Alkan thumb

Keep up the great work!

Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed... [Re: RaindropPrelude] #1856553
03/05/12 12:16 PM
03/05/12 12:16 PM
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This may be ancient history, but the nerves are still fresh.

As a US military veteran, I applaud what Zimerman did. Nothing better than using what little platform each of us has to speak for a cause. I admire it, even if it was unbecoming.

He reminds me of a friend who embraces notions above people: a dangerous prejudice, as Jack concludes.

Zimerman demanded attention, and this act was an invitation to respond in kind. Jack responded. His commentary was sharp and drew on specific facts--and it was a pleasure to read on top of that. He can serve himself all he wants, if that's what you call that. I enjoyed it.

BTW, Jack, thanks for the Alkan--my favorite among your gifts. I wish more artists would champion music's beautiful castaways.


Only in men's imagination does every truth find an effective and undeniable existence. Imagination, not invention, is the supreme master of art as of life. -Józef Teodor Konrad Korzeniowski
Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed... [Re: wr] #1856575
03/05/12 12:44 PM
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About the side issue of keeping one's identity completely unknown to the membership: Sure, it's a choice many people make, for many possible reasons. But I think one of the possible reasons for such anonymity is to let the person feel enabled to say things of a sort that would never be said if usual constraints were operating. From my couple of years of experience here, I suspect that to be the case with this.

Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed... [Re: DameMyra] #1856601
03/05/12 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by DameMyra
What am I missing here?


Was wondering the same thing myself.

No offense intended to Mr. Gibbons, but couldn't have this been handled by PM rather than reviving a >2 year old thread?


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed... [Re: Horowitzian] #1856605
03/05/12 01:38 PM
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I don't agree. This site is very public and the posts on it are very public, whether old or not. When you see something like that about yourself hanging out there, and especially if you're a public figure, it's reasonable to want to rebut it in the same public forum.

Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed... [Re: RaindropPrelude] #1856620
03/05/12 02:17 PM
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Yes, but to play devil's advocate: why should Mr. Gibbons care? wr chooses to keep his/her identity secret (as do I, for that matter), so it is for all intents and purposes the opinion of some random person on a public forum. (/opinion of some random person on a public forum smile )


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed... [Re: Horowitzian] #1856626
03/05/12 02:22 PM
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Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed... [Re: Horowitzian] #1856630
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Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed... [Re: Mark_C] #1856631
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Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed... [Re: hawgdriver] #1856643
03/05/12 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by hawgdriver
As a US military veteran, I applaud what Zimerman did. Nothing better than using what little platform each of us has to speak for a cause. I admire it, even if it was unbecoming.
<snip>
Zimerman demanded attention, and this act was an invitation to respond in kind. Jack responded. His commentary was sharp and drew on specific facts--and it was a pleasure to read on top of that. He can serve himself all he wants, if that's what you call that. I enjoyed it.

I too applaud Zimmerman. I get annoyed at people who say "America, love it or leave it!" The point is we have free speech, which you as a military veteran have sacrificed to preserve. I don't necessarily agree with Zimmerman and I heartily agree that a concert is a suboptimal place to express such views. The founding fathers considered free speech a paramount right (that's why it's the first amendment) and they weren't talking just about speech we agree with or is expressed nicely. I also agree that those who walked out on Zimmerman had every right to do so, though they probably missed some very emotional playing thereafter. There are many countries where any disagreement with the government will put one's life at risk. This country isn't one of them, freedom of speech is sacrosanct, you don't have to agree with it, in fact you're welcome to argue about anything. To say Zimmerman's actions were biting the hand that feeds him is an observation of fact, to say he should keep quiet is un-American.

Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed... [Re: RaindropPrelude] #1856652
03/05/12 03:37 PM
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Quote
...to say he should keep quiet is un-American.


To say that he could have shown more respect to his captive audience in those circumstances is pro-civility.

.
.
.

and here we are rehashing a year old thread ...


P.S. Jack Gibbons' reentry here is perfectly appropriate, BTW. He has an active interest in reviving the thread. Hopefully, that will be temporary.

Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed... [Re: Piano*Dad] #1856682
03/05/12 04:35 PM
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....to which I would add that as a general matter, I completely don't understand the occasional objection that is expressed about re-opening old threads.

Or maybe better to put it this way: I've seen some people explain their objections, and I don't agree that any of them hold the proverbial water. smile

Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed... [Re: Piano*Dad] #1856696
03/05/12 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
Quote
...to say he should keep quiet is un-American.


To say that he could have shown more respect to his captive audience in those circumstances is pro-civility.

Which is exactly why I also said that expressing his views in a concert setting was "suboptimal" and that he was indeed "biting the hand that feeds him." So we agree! Why did you feel it necessary to rehash this?

I not against civility, but civil disobedience has a long and proud history in this country (and no I'm not saying they're equivalent). Given the current climate of discomfort with any disagreement and the staggering weight of important issues facing us we need to learn how to have civil conversations about the issues facing us. Jingoistic phrases (such as love it or leave it) are not constructive in civil discourse. I believe this country would benefit greatly if we all learned some tolerance for viewpoints we disagree with. It would certainly make political disagreements more civil. Of course until that happens, in public discussion, we all have the right to express our views. Except that PW is a private community and such discussions are typically given a short leash. So let's try to keep it civil.
smile

Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed... [Re: Piano*Dad] #1856727
03/05/12 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
Jack Gibbons' post disappeared. Was it edited for him or did he remove it? We wonders. Yes, we wonders.


Here, at any rate, is the ancient post of mine that he included in the one he deleted. For all the threats about "slander" and "contacting the administrators", it remains merely my opinion on a blog entry that I recall as being an attempted hatchet job on Zimerman. And, I have to emphasize, it was in response to liszt95's assessment (and OSK's bringing the blog entry into the already heated discussion), and not directly to the blog itself - that's a subtle point, but one that some of you may appreciate.


Originally Posted by wr
Originally Posted by liszt85
Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
Same thing happened to Jack Gibbons a couple times, and here's a blog by him talking about it: http://jackgibbons.blogspot.com/2010/03/zimermans-anti-american-tirade.html


Jack Gibbon's post is extremely sensible.


I thought it was stupid and self-serving twaddle that was at least as self-righteous as Zimerman's outburst. And probably disingenuous, as well - what exactly was that Yamaha "keyboard" that he compares to Zimerman's destroyed Steinway? Whatever it might be, apparently it was repairable, unlike the Steinway. And that weird detour into anti-Webern guilt-by-association was just plain icky.

And what's with a "blog" that has a gap from March to October - that's false advertising, if you ask me (unless you are as brilliant a writer as Denk, which Gibbons isn't even within shouting range of being).

Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed... [Re: wr] #1856750
03/05/12 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by wr






what exactly was that Yamaha "keyboard" that he compares to Zimerman's destroyed Steinway? Whatever it might be, apparently it was repairable, unlike the Steinway.


That Yamaha keyboard, if you read his most recent response, was all the man had. He stated that he couldn't afford insurance. Perhaps, you've not ever borne the brunt of severe financial difficulty the likes of which it appears Mr. Gibbons has. I hope that you haven't, but when all you have is just that...all you have...it becomes more precious than gold.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed... [Re: stores] #1856769
03/05/12 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by wr






what exactly was that Yamaha "keyboard" that he compares to Zimerman's destroyed Steinway? Whatever it might be, apparently it was repairable, unlike the Steinway.


That Yamaha keyboard, if you read his most recent response, was all the man had. He stated that he couldn't afford insurance. Perhaps, you've not ever borne the brunt of severe financial difficulty the likes of which it appears Mr. Gibbons has. I hope that you haven't, but when all you have is just that...all you have...it becomes more precious than gold.


Which has nothing to do with the point I think I was trying to make at the time. The point would have been that, regardless of any individual owner's financial situation, electric keyboards are a dime a dozen relative to a hand-picked and customized concert grand, which, as I am sure you know, are each unique and irreplaceable.

Anyway, Zimerman's rant wasn't even about what happened to his pianos, nor was it directly connected. That connection made was completely on the part of reporters, AFAIK.





Last edited by wr; 03/05/12 07:15 PM.
Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed... [Re: RaindropPrelude] #1856781
03/05/12 07:22 PM
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i think this thread was better forgotten, all these politics draw too many lines in the sand.

Last edited by TheHappyMoron; 03/05/12 07:23 PM.

All theory, dear friend, is grey, but the golden tree of life springs ever green.
Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed... [Re: stores] #1856782
03/05/12 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by wr
what exactly was that Yamaha "keyboard" that he compares to Zimerman's destroyed Steinway? Whatever it might be, apparently it was repairable, unlike the Steinway.
That Yamaha keyboard, if you read his most recent response, was all the man had. He stated that he couldn't afford insurance. Perhaps, you've not ever borne the brunt of severe financial difficulty the likes of which it appears Mr. Gibbons has. I hope that you haven't, but when all you have is just that...all you have...it becomes more precious than gold.

Beautifully said.

Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed... [Re: RaindropPrelude] #1856783
03/05/12 07:25 PM
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i missed the deleted post, but i can guess the jist of it. surely we all have a story to tell, no one lives a life so easy. can't we let all this go?

Last edited by TheHappyMoron; 03/05/12 07:26 PM. Reason: too tired to spell or include proper grammar

All theory, dear friend, is grey, but the golden tree of life springs ever green.
Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed... [Re: TheHappyMoron] #1856784
03/05/12 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by TheHappyMoron
i missed the deleted post, but i can guess the jist of it. surely we all have a story to tell, no one lives a life so easy. can't we let all this go?

What exactly is your point?

Jack noticed what had been said; he wished to reply, which at least some of us feel was very justified; there have been a few posts since then, digesting and discussing it, over the course of less than a day.

It may well now be time to let it go. But it didn't need any annoyed posts like that.

Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed... [Re: Mark_C] #1856798
03/05/12 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C


Jack noticed what had been said (...)


Which is interesting in itself, since it is a year and some months later. How does that happen?

And then, too, this thread itself was started on the basis of an old review from something like a year and eight months earlier. You must be loving it, what with your affection for zombie threads - it's a zombie thread based on zombie news. Yay, doubly good!!



Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed... [Re: wr] #1856805
03/05/12 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by wr
Which is interesting in itself, since it is a year and some months later. How does that happen?

I think he explained that.

Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed... [Re: Mark_C] #1856829
03/05/12 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by wr
Which is interesting in itself, since it is a year and some months later. How does that happen?

I think he explained that.


Except that he left out the most important parts: who, and why, and why so belatedly (or, put differently, why now).


Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed... [Re: wr] #1856836
03/05/12 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by wr


Which has nothing to do with the point I think I was trying to make at the time. The point would have been that, regardless of any individual owner's financial situation, electric keyboards are a dime a dozen relative to a hand-picked and customized concert grand, which, as I am sure you know, are each unique and irreplaceable.



Okay, it may not have been exactly the point you were trying to make, but you DID include it in your rant, which DOES make it part of your point, whether you intended it to be or not. I'll counter by saying that regardless of the fact that electric keyboards are a dime a dozen (yes, I know, a concert grand) the owner's financial situation IS NOT a thing of disregard. If he couldn't afford insurance then the price tag of a new electric must have seemed insurmountable at the time.

I'm fully aware of the intent of Zimerman's "outburst", by the way.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed... [Re: wr] #1856838
03/05/12 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by wr


Except that he left out the most important parts: who, and why, and why so belatedly (or, put differently, why now).



Have you ever thought that he might not have seen this thread until just prior to his posting? Quite possible.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed... [Re: Mark_C] #1856840
03/05/12 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by wr
what exactly was that Yamaha "keyboard" that he compares to Zimerman's destroyed Steinway? Whatever it might be, apparently it was repairable, unlike the Steinway.
That Yamaha keyboard, if you read his most recent response, was all the man had. He stated that he couldn't afford insurance. Perhaps, you've not ever borne the brunt of severe financial difficulty the likes of which it appears Mr. Gibbons has. I hope that you haven't, but when all you have is just that...all you have...it becomes more precious than gold.

Beautifully said.


Thank you.

(I know I've had you on ignore...and you still are...but I've been toggling you throughout this thread).



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

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