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I've been reading two threads. In one there is the implication that having a piano with an unusual color will make a child feel it is his very own, and that this will cause a child to practice. What gets a child to practice are:
- good guidance by a teacher, which makes practicing rewarding since there are cumulative small successes / enjoyment
- the right kind of support by parents
- an attitude by the child, which to some measure springs from the first
- a well functioning instrument
As a selling point here: if a new teacher were to suggest that I buy an instrument because its color would induce my child to practice, I would question that teacher's priorities. In recommending an instrument, I expect the teacher to be talking about durability, responsiveness to the touch of the young pianist, ease of maintenance. Now that window with the visible hammers: that is actually something which is both useful and interesting.

Then here, and in the classroom:

I'm trying to find the words why this bothers me so much. Are kids that shallow? Is the attraction to music mainly through bright shiny appearance? In addition, the problem is not that of trying out the piano, but of continuing to do things with that piano. The main thing again probably is maintenance and function: if it continues to work well, then it will remain attractive. Is durability mentioned anywhere? What keeps kids going probably consists of things such as a good program, enough quality instruments, small enough classroom size, good instruction by a competent teacher who gets proper support by the community and institution.

Visuals, in the classroom, are there for the purpose of instructing or remembering. The charts and whatever will have bright colors to highlight things. Desks and things students work with are more neutral. In some corners there is also a rethinking of this, because our young people are overstimulated, which is part of the reason for ADHD and hyperactivity. Does everything have to be "exciting"? How about engrossing?

What about the priorities of teachers and maybe the students and parents they serve? (What in fact are they?) Maybe this piano has features that match those priorities. It is a cool looking piano, and since pianos are not exactly invisible in the room, their appearance does play a role. But that's not all there is to a piano, and things such as practicing don't depend primarily on the appearance of the instrument.

I would just tell the teacher that s/he is exactly the kind of teacher I would avoid at all costs and leave it at that.

This thread is a total waste of time.

I find this absolutely fascinating and appreciate the honesty of everyone.
The reason why I am very interested in everyone's opinion on this is obviously to see if a viable market exists for such a piano.

Some information on the piano industry as a whole:
So many piano manufacturer's could not survive and have had to shut down. Others had no alternative but to allow themselves to be bought out by other companies to continue operating. The only reason for this is a weakening demand for the instrument.
Naturally if demand is diminishing, there is negative growth in this industry which suggest fewer people are buying pianos and taking lessons.

Yet, all of us are fully aware of the inherent benefits that are directly associated with learning to play the piano as plenty of studies have proven this over the years. North Americans have a heightened awareness of today's educational systems and that perhaps they could be improved - so generally parents with young children are indeed concerned about the academic and social growth of their kids. But still this new generation shows no interest in the common piano.

Am I correct in understanding that most of the replies have been coming from teachers who are perhaps very successful with a very low student turn-over rate..... but are quite stringent to begin with on who they accept as a student..? Only those students with a good support system from their parents and who personally appreciate music and enjoy it are being introduced and given a chance at the piano.
This is a diminishing group and so small compared to the total population that they would not even register as a percentage of the total.

What about those children whose parents overlook a traditional piano because they see it as old fashioned, and the children themselves who simply overlook a traditional piano because they've never been properly introduced to the creative artistry of music (whether classical, jazz, blues, pop, whichever)? How many musicians are out there but have never touched an instrument? Is there room to attract these people at a young age, thereby increasing the appreciation for music 20-30 years from now?

What other industries are doing well that still market a product that has not changed since the early 1900's and that still utilizes the same marketing approach? I dare all of you to give this some serious thought?
As teachers you may not be as involved in knowing how many pianos are bought and sold each year - that is not your primary concern. But it does help give some suggestions on what the market will be like 10-20-30 years from now for those in the music business.

I cannot believe that none of your points include that the child them self have fun while they are taking lessons. Your first point mentions enjoyment as a result of cumulative small successes, but as a grown professional, you could have cumulative small successes at your workplace which promote some sense of satisfaction - while actually really being very unhappy because your job is simply something you do not enjoy. You will either look for somewhere else to work or be miserable.
These students will quit lessons as soon as their parents allow them to.



What if it were true?

Gary I really want to make a connection between your vocation and what goes on in the piano industry.
Parents come in all the time and say "We're looking for a piano for little Johnny, but we don't want to spend much money because we don't know if he will like it or not".

Right here there is a huge problem, because like you, I recognize that the proper nurturing environment for the child to typically succeed is absent. But we are making a HUGE assumption and doing a disservice to the child by assuming on their own, they will never last and this simply is not necessarily true.
What I have come to realize is that for those types of buyers, it is only fair to the child to give them a piano that the child will take the most interest in. Anything less and they may stop because their peers think they are a geek for playing the piano (which they would never tell their parents, they would just say they don't like the lessons). Or they may stop right at the beginning because the piano was basically, excuse my language, a piece of junk to begin with.
Conversely, if their friends came over and saw a really cool piano, and the kid showed them what they've learned so far, and their peers encourage them and envy what they are doing - hmmm, a completely different result would be achieved.

I welcome all thoughts and comments. Please go easy

A child having fun is not contingent on the colour of his piano. Part of what creates that fun in the long run is having a good instructor who knows how to make that happen, and a good instrument so that he is not struggling with a piece of junk. The priorities of quality, maintenance, durability are still there. And these are the points that you are not mentioning at all. The colour being attractive certainly has merits, but not as the ONLY thing. A piano is an instrument - a device that you do something with - like the bicycle that you were writing about, or like a baseball bat, roller skates, hockey skates, art supplies. If they are well made then the child can do things with them and get better and better. If they are shoddy then the child experiences disappointment and frustration. If they are too expensive then they are inaccessible. If high maintenance then there is a problem too. Indirectly all of these things impinge upon fun. These qualities should be mentioned because they matter.

If this teacher does not believe that good guidance, and therefore success, is part of what creates practice habits, then the additional fact of piano colour would not take away from the lack of the first.

John, the telephone rings in the studio. A parent has just purchased a "piano" and wants lessons for Claudia. Partly curious, and partly professionally, I ask, "What did you get?" Do you know what I'm expecting to hear? Some brand of piano. Do you know what I generally hear? Some brand of electronic synthesizer. Often 48 keys, sold at Costco for $99. What exactly am I supposed to do? Tell them the salesman lied, this isn't a piano? Probably not a good idea, even though piano sales men and women have been hawking trash for five decades (at least). I should probably not be so harsh, as there are both good and not so good teachers (as this forum and many students who come here to gripe amply attest), but my experience is that piano salesmen come in all flavors, from highly professional, like at the Steinway dealership, to snake oil salesmen (I won't mention any brands).


Speaking for myself and myself only, I will take any and all students who commit to paying the tuition. However, it is true that my tuition point is such that it automatically weeds out unserious students. That's not the purpose of my tuition point. My tuition is set to cover my expenses and provide me with a living, not to encourage/discourage students, but the unintended consequence of having a professional salary for yourself is that you do become selective.

When you first posted on this forum, I assumed that you were interested in learning what piano teachers needed in the way of instruments. Obviously, I was mistaken. You'd probably get more helpful responses over in the pianist or beginning pianist forums.

John (newgeneration), as a piano I'd say it's kind of dorky, but also whimsical. Not great design, but the ability to see the hammers is fun. Good luck selling it.

We piano teachers can't comment further without playing it and hearing it. Call us old-fashioned and out of touch with youth.

If you want to drag one down to NYC at the end of the month for the MTNA convention, we'll try it.

It's pretty rare for us to learn Claudia's new piano sold around $10,000 with tax. If I learned a family spent that much on a first piano, I'd be ecstatic. And no doubt I would forget to ask what color it was, and whether the sharps were made out of lucite! (I'm sure I speak for piano teachers in Olympia, Washington as well.)

Peter, that wasn't my point. Just to be clear, the piano makers/sellers have brought this situation on us by selling non-pianos as pianos AND by telling parents that the student's first piano doesn't need to be quality. In fact, the better the instrument at the start, the more likely the student is to enjoy their studies. BTW, I have enjoyed referrals from S&S and other dealers of quality pianos in the area, so it actually does happen, but not as often as either of us would like.

I would be interested if the piano comes with adjustable pedals, a lever/bar for the wrists, a built-in metronome, a computer screen for scrolling music, adjustable legs for the tall/short folks, a computerized tuning system that makes the piano stay in tune forever, an adjustable bench that goes high/low enough for people 3 feet to 7 feet tall, and a practice pedal in addition to a sostenuto pedal.

I drive the piano purchasing decisions for 90% of my students, and most have either Yamaha T-118s or U1s. I pick pianos based on quality, trusted brand, and resale value, in order to provide the maximum value. Newer brands - especially ones out of the ordinary - may pose issues, especially with resale. I would not be comfortable with my student spending $10,000 on a piano, and not having a local dealer to support any potential maintenance issues (there is no Lomence dealer in Texas).

I would consider recommending a brand like Lomence if it was an overall modern brand - not just in looks, but also incorporating technologies like those in Yamaha's Disklavier line.

Yes, I misunderstood. John is absolutely correct, that the better the piano, the more successful the piano study experience.

By the yardstick of the $99 Costco keyboard, however, a Lomence is no doubt a worthy upright. Its unusual colors and the goofiness of its cabinet might carry a student through a month of lessons, but hardly years. In short this is a pricy gimmick piano, imo. I can't imagine who the target market might be: well, probably affluent Chinese in China.

It is far too expensive to fly in N. America.

I don't want this thread to go anywhere near trying to be an advertisement for the brand so I won't mention anything more than what I already offered:



I can't disclose who some of these were because in more than one instance, they are design engineers of other brands (!)

At the route of it all, I am trying to understand why 100% of adults would all love to be able to play the piano, yet interest is diminishing to the extent that piano makers are closing their factories, and piano showrooms are going out of business.

It seems like some are developing the impression that I am only about promoting, even forcing these modern looking pianos into the market.
I am trying to decide if a market exists here.

Please note that at the other end of the spectrum, my corporation represents Steingraeber & Sohne for the Canadian market. We deal with one of the world's best, most prestigious, elite European pianos and many of the finest pianists that travel the globe. It is indeed an odd extreme of a spectrum - Steingraeber - tradition at its finest, and Lomence - modern like no other.
I personally see it as Lomence attempting to re-capture interest back to what it used to be, where a piano complimented and suited the average home whether it is used regularly or not - and Steingraeber being the matured pinnacle of defined achievement and appreciation for quality and rare craftsmanship.

We are all on the same team.



Absolutely agree.

Peter, you are in Toronto, we are in Richmond Hill.
Cosmo Music is a retailer and you can see these pianos in person for yourself. Actually, I also have one downtown at an interior designers showroom on King St E.
If interested, swing on over and give it a try.

As for the target market - this is precisely what is being evaluated. I can tell you the first to land in North America was sold to a semi-retired couple living in in a renovated, lakeside home. They purchased the white 123 and requested the PianoDisc player system be installed.
The next went to a public school whose principal allowed the students to choose the colour. It is the 'students' piano, not just some school piano now.
The next was a teenage girl who was taking lessons but also for pure enjoyment dabbling with Alicia Keys and other pop star musician's music.
And so on....
It appears the market might be significant, but we are interested in doing more research and so all your feedback is welcome and appreciated.

Peter I suppose you have traveled to China in order to suggest the comment you offered.

Fair enough.

I am in South Florida, right in the middle of a place that has been severely hit by the economic meltdown. It is rare that I get beginners who came from musically sophisticated families. Usually the kids who start with me have very little knowledge of music of any kind. Their parents have some vague idea that playing a musical instrument could be a good thing, and usually they pick up one of those 61 key DPs that most people here swear about.

My philosophy is very different from other teachers who actively post here. In about four decades of teaching I have seen countless kids who came from families with a lot of money, "all the advantages", who had no more than average ability and less than average interest in music. There are exceptions, of course. But most of the students who have been my favorites have either come from poor families or have come from families with nearly zero knowledge of music or pianos, and about anything I teach.

I never turn anyone away who comes to me with a good attitude and what looks to be interest in music. I educate both young students AND their parents on the fly. When a kid knows nothing, a cheap digital does not seem to be a problem. Would I prefer every student to start out with an excellent instrument?

Of course.

And if a family were looking at instrument A and instrument B, same price, and instrument B had a "cool" look, I certainly would have no objections. Why would I?

However, BECAUSE most of my kids start on "starter" instruments, my thrust is to develop skills so fast that it becomes evident to the parents that their cheap Casio (or Yamaha) does not have enough keys and is limiting in a thousand ways. I work with the families.

A typical example:

A little more than a year ago I started working with a young student who was playing on a Casio, no touch-sensitivity, no sustain pedal. You get the idea. But he was fascinated with the whole idea of keyboards from day one (meaning keyboards of ALL kinds), and I was able to advance him so fast that within about six months it was obvious to his family that he had talent, and we were able to find an instrument that allowed him to grow. It won't be the last one. If he continues to explode in ability as he is now doing, he's going to be dreaming of something that will have that powerful and subtle sound all talented, developing musicians want. And here, again, my students must be atypical, because all of them would kill for a grand and find uprights a huge step down. As a kid, the moment I played on a great grand, that was the only thing I dreamed about having, of playing on. Basic black, as big as possible, because those were the instruments that sounded the best to me.

My students don't seem to care about color or any gimmicks UNLESS those gimmicks come as extras on instruments they love, for the sound, but that may be because mostly they don't have a chance at such an instrument until they already play very well.

You son is cute, and I enjoyed watching him play, but the idea of having parents who would buy such an instrument to START on would be beyond belief for most of my students. For them it would be another world, a privileged world, a world they only see "up close" on TV.

I could tell you story after story of students who started with instruments that were really quite awful, but their drive to play, the pure love of music kept them going until their families were able to get them a good instrument.

There are also students who start out with decent instruments who are motivated and above average in talent, but what gets ignored again and again here, what is dismissed as a non-factor, is the fact that these cheap digital instruments give poorer students a chance to start, students who would never have had a chance to discover all this a couple decades ago.

Two decades ago for such kids, playing the piano, discovering "classical" music, was about as practical and possible as joining a golf club or a tennis club.

This means that parents who would never have considered buying a piano, just on the CHANCE that a son or daughter might have the talent and desire to take advantage of it, will often do it later, when a child has demonstrated real interest after STARTING on something that richer "folks" would sneer at.

And by the way, there is a HECK of a lot of sneering done in this forum.

There are two outcomes from today's reality, very opposite:

1) A huge percentage of people who would have felt forced to buy a "real piano" now feel free to buy a DP. This is horrible for your business if this is as far as they go.

BUT:

2) If there were more teachers out there truly motivating young players and effectively teaching them so that they gain real skills, there would be a counter-balancing tendency for familes to make the leap, coming into stores selling quality acoustics, and that would be GOOD for your business. I love DPs. Everytime I say this, I am ready to duck, since to say such a thing in a "tradionally classical" world is a good way to get stoned. But the flip side of this is that if you play really well, no DP on the market comes close to the indescribable sound of a fantastic grand.

In my opinion the decline in piano sales is two-fold. DPs cut into your market hugely, and that is simply a fact. However, the REAL problem is that incompetent piano teachers are so great in number that the vast majority of potential purchasers of quality instruments never get good enough to realize WHY they are quality instruments, no matter what the color or how cool the instruments look.

It is likely that not one teacher who posts in this forum will agree with much of anything I said. But that is my experience, and I do NOT get most of my students from "privileged familes". So I guess I just have a different view of teaching and why young students eventually become fine musicians - or don't.

Do you really believe the "product" has not changed since early 1900's? Have you ever heard a Steinway dealer tell about improvements in design or read about Kawaii's technology to improve action? And hear about the latest technology Roland is using in their DP's?

Do you have any clue as to why teachers steer parents clear of buying spinets?

Piano's and DP's have changed and some are better built than ever. And others are following an old recipe, and they limit use of technological improvements to those that improve "price point".

In my experience "the new wears off" after a short time. It's the quality of sound that will continue to inspire a student over time.

For example, when you get a bargain on a purchase, there is the initial thrill of getting the low price. That wears off a short time later, and then you only get gratification if it was a good quality purchase.

I think crystal pianos would make a fun Christmas tree ornament or an ornament to sit on the real piano.

Do you really believe marketing hasn't changed? Our Steinway dealer has expanded to include a recital room. They focus on networking with teachers and their students. I'd say that for SOME dealers, marketing has changed a great deal.

Gary thanks for that thoughtful post.
I don't see DP's as the real cause for the downturn in piano sales, because as you mention (and I agree), the price point of the DP is so much less than an acoustic piano.
In that vein it is a wonderful situation that if DP's didn't exist, maybe some children would simply never get the chance of taking up lessons because it is simply too expensive to get involved with buying an acoustic piano.
My only caution for clients is that like you point out, these keyboards have limitations (and gizmo distractions) and ultimately are like buying a computer - if a person buys a half decent DP, their money is gone and as a financial investment (just in case Suzy isn't seriously interested) they can't sell it for anything close to what they paid for it. A new model with new electronics has come out 6 months later and the electric DP they bought is already outdated.

I like the quote in your signature. I wonder if it applies to me in my situation with Lomence.

Yes, pianos have barely evolved at all! The carbon composite parts in Kawai's does not change much for the consumer. If it was a bit of superior evolution/change, the very best piano manufacturer's would have switched to it. Why are Tier 1 pianos still primarily using wooden parts and outperform the rest?

Think of a car for example, performance has improved, handling, safety, ergonomics - everything. You cannot take parts today and insert them into an automobile from decades ago (or vice versa). With a piano, generally speaking you can.
The so called 'changes' that we see in pianos has NOT come from the consumers, but from the engineers in their back rooms trying to offer something new to market in a dying industry.
Let me provide a truly innovative evolution that Steingraeber has available: carbon fiber soundboards. A soundboard that doesn't 'age' and is much more stable from climate to climate because it doesn't react with humidity differences. This changes the playing field. The engineering of the pianos construction has to be altered and had to be re-designed so it is not like a traditional piano has always been.
Wooden parts vs plastic parts, and all the arguing that goes on within the industry about it - who cares? The consumers don't - otherwise the market would demand it for all brands.
This is what I meant.

And Steinway, don't get me started. A company that signs up artists and then tries to manipulate them and disavow them should they perform on anything but Steinway, sheesh, in any other industry today do you know what type of critisism that would receive... com'on.
Steinway is the king of marketing. Think about it, if you ask the general public what is the best piano in the world, the majority response is Steinway. You ask the same question to a piano technician or rebuilder, (someone inside the industry without anything to gain from their response) and you would hear some other brands in likely much greater percentage.

Their marketing strategy also has not changed. ie: Find a young person who is a piano prodigy, woo them early and lock them in as an artist. Then say to concert halls, "well if you do not have a Steinway at your hall, no Steinway artists will be able to perform at your venue."

Most noteworthy piano dealers these days have a miniature performing hall (or have access to one), network with teachers (to drive traffic to their stores), but very few (and there are some amazing ones) do anything positive for actually fostering a thriving piano industry 10-20-30 years from now.