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Hello,

Thank you in advance to all responders hereto and generally to contributors to the forum. While this is my first post, I've spent a long time here in researching my first piano purchase.

This has the potential to be a long story, so I shall try to keep it to the bare facts.

I found a used baby grand at a dealer in the Chicago area advertised as:

P.C. Weaver baby grand, serial number 31402, mfd. in Elgin, IL circa 1920.

I went to see it and liked it. So, I had an inspection done by a registered piano technician who came highly recommended by friends. He reported that the piano was in excellent shape for it's age, and it only had a few loose pins that could be remedied by tapping them into the pin block. He assured me that with the pin tapping, the piano should give at least an additional 10 years of good service.

The original asking price was $1875, but was lowered to $1150 about three weeks after I first saw it. I paid $1150 plus delivery.

It arrived at my home via three professional movers. I was elated.

Upon further visible inspection, I noticed another number, 51782, engraved into a wooden rail under the strings next to the pin block, facing up. At the time, I thought nothing of it.

The following day, I performed a thorough dusting of the entire piano. I discovered two more numbers. The first, engraved under the key bed, facing the floor, 51782. The matching number to that on the wooden rail under the strings. I removed the long piece of wood in front and to the bottom of the keys (I do not know its proper technical name) to further dust in and around the action assembly. On that long piece of wood, there is an engraved number, 782. The last three digits of the other two newly discovered numbers.

The "serial number" is "stamped" on one of the vertical beams on the harp. That number says 31402, the number that the seller used to date the piano. The "4" in that number was misprinted and written over. Whoever applied it made a mistake and simply tried to correct the mistake by printing over it. Also, there is a black mark on an adjacent harp beam in black ink. That mark matches the ink of the "serial number". Thereby confirming that the person who negligently applied the "serial number" also carelessly marked the harp.

The decal on the fallboard reads, "P.C. Weaver" in Old English type. The decal is flawless. The finish on the piano is very worn as if it had been neglected for many years. I suspect the current decal was recently applied.

The only other marking that I have found is on the harp. There is a crest with two lions with lettering that reads, "Established 1892." There is no indication of any kind on either the harp or the soundboard of the name of the manufacturer. The Pierce Piano Atlas lists the first year for P.C. Weaver piano manufacture was 1900 at number 15000 which raises the question, is the data on P.C. Weaver incomplete in the Pierce Atlas?

I read in the Atlas that there may be other numbers on a piano in addition to the serial numbers that may be manufacturer part numbers.

At this point, I am a bit confused. The authenticity of the piece was the largest factor in the purchase for reasons that I will not go delve into.

I ask those of you in the know to please comment as to whether or not this fact scenario sounds like a fraudulent sale. I wholeheartedly thank you in advance.

Sincerely,
Gordon.

PS - I realize one obvious response hereto is to ask the inspecting technician specific questions about the authenticity. I plan to do just that. But, he has a vested interest in protecting his reputation. I want to solicit uninterested third party opinions here.

The number on the plate is more than likely the serial number, with the others being the numbers used to keep parts together before the serial number was assigned. In any case, if it were a higher number, it would be newer which presumably would make it more desirable. In any case, with a piano this old, you are buying the piano, not its history. Any warranty would have expired long ago when the company went under. The only purpose a serial number serves is to identify the piano, and this is undoubtedly the piano you paid for.

By the way, the Piano Atlas says that P. C. Weaver was a name used by the E. P. Johnson piano company. It is possible then that 51782 was a number that represented the actual number of pianos made for both labels, and that separate serial numbers were used for each label.

Thank you much for the response. A couple points to make thereto:

1. The last year of manufacture for P.C. Weaver in the Atlas is 1921 beginning with serial number 32000. This can only lead to two logical conclusions: 1. Pierce has incomplete data on P.C. Weaver, which I doubt. 2. If the higher number, 51782, is in fact the serial number, then that is conclusive evidence that the piano is NOT a P.C. Weaver.

2. I said I would not delve into this, but I feel it necessary in response to your comments about identifying a piano. I also said that authenticity was the primary factor in the purchase. In short, my family has deep roots in Elgin, IL, and having a piano manufactured in Elgin has subjective value to me as a buyer. In other words, if this piano was not made in Elgin, IL, then it has little to no value to me.

Given the last year the P.C. Weaver was made was in 1921 with a serial number of 32000, it would match that yours was made in 1920. And just because someone messed up the stamping of the serial number and also accidentally marked the adjacent beam, doesn't mean it was done recently versus at the initial time it was manufactured.

Either way it's clearly an old piano, whether this brand or another. The chance that someone would go through the trouble of faking an old P.C. Weaver in the off chance that someone with deep ties to Elgin, IL would want it is slim.

I say be happy with finding this piece of history that is still in pretty good shape and enjoy it.

BDB, I hear you on the E.P. Johnson references.

The Atlas also states E.P. Johnson was established in 1907. My harp says, "Established 1892".

Is it possible that E.P. Johnson (formed in 1907) purchased P.C. Weaver having been established prior thereto in 1892? I believe the reasonable response is "yes", but the data in the Atlas does not support this conclusion.

Welcome to the Piano World Forums!

I'm no pro, and probably shouldn't even comment here, but I honestly do not think you are a victim of fraud by the seller. Like BDB (who is a pro) stated, you got what you paid for, more or less.

Your investigative skills are keen, and I too would have been suspicious of the number discrepancies and the new-looking decal on the fallboard.

Have you discussed these concerns with the seller? If it really bothers you (and it seems it has) ask the seller for a refund (minus the moving cost). If nothing else, he might give you additional concessions on the price you paid or offer you the refund.

Other than the make/age identification issues you mentioned, how do you like the piano?

Best of luck to you, whatever happens from here on…

Rick

Rick, thank you for your input. It is valuable.

No, I have not discussed this with the seller yet. You are right in saying it does bother me. Quite honestly, I feel a bit out of my head and wanted to get some unbiased opinions before I speak with either the buyer or the inspecting technician.

How do I like the piano? Hmmmm.

Overall, I do like it. But I have a couple concerns:

1. There is a distinct buzzing sound somewhere around the soundboard when playing some notes. I did not detect this buzzing nor did my inspector at the dealer prior to delivery. From what I've read, buzzing could run the gamut from minor to major issues.

2. The entire piano was very dusty. This I knew about from the dealership, but I can still detect an odor after two thorough dusting sessions.

Elgin is a big enough city were there may be old records of companies somewhere, or some historian that could help explain. The building might even still stand, probably along the Fox River. The Atlas is a guide, but can not be held as 100% correct, though it's pretty accurate in most cases. Are you related to the Weaver Piano people in Elgin? Wonder if they are related to PC Weaver?

Bob,

No, I am not related to the Weaver Piano people in Elgin. But there is a Weaver's Music store in Elgin. I suspect that is to whom you are referring. I've been meaning to inquire whether there is a connection to PC Weaver. My instincts tell me that there is.

The old factory was razed sometime ago to make way for the civic center downtown. This I found online on an Elgin historical site.

There is an Elgin Historic Society that I plan on contacting. However, they are only open Wednesday to Saturday, so it will have to wait until tomorrow at the earliest.

I have seen more than a few serial numbers where at least one digit wasn't printed on the plate that well. The new Steinway in my office is one of them...

Let's be realistic here. Why in the world would anybody WANT to misrepresent a piano as a "P.C. Weaver"? It certainly has sentimental value to at least one potential buyer (the OP), but honestly...

daifanshi and at least one other poster have focused on the apparent implausibility of anyone purposely misrepresenting a piano as being an obscure and obsolete piano brand that, before they (the seller) ran into you (the buyer) stood a chance of impressing a potential buyer smaller than the probability of being struck with lightning twice in the same location.

This may seem like a small detail to be weighed with a bunch of others you're considering, but unless the seller knew about your personal connection to this Illinois town AND that you were the person who was going to buy the instrument, the likelihood of fraud in this case would seem infinitesimal. Think about it!

Hi Gordon:

It is quite common for manufacturers to have both a production number and serial number, and this practice has been employed for many decades. Most likely, the engraved numbers are production numbers, not serial numbers.

I not sure about your piano, but if it is a stencil instrument (a piano built by a large company such as Aeolian, but with a local companies name, like Lyon & Healy) this would give extra credence to the production number / serial number discrepancy. Many dealerships had stencil pianos built with their names and identities on them for local marketing purposes (such as Lyon & Healy). Perhaps the Weaver music company did that at some point.

Regardless, I highly doubt that the dealer would intentionally alter the serial number to induce you to purchase this sort of instrument. Given its sale price and relative value, even the most, uh, unscrupulous of retailers would consider this peanuts. Now, if it was a Brambach that said Steinway on it, THAT I could understand

No one would do that -- it would detract from the value of the Brambach.

ddf

These responses are making me feel much better about the situation. My inner George Castanza is driving this particular bout of neurosis. I TRULY appreciate everyone's input.

Just keep telling yourself how awful George was, and the less you emulate him the better!

How does the piano sound and play??

Come on, Dave--why dabble in such irrelevance?

Let's get back to the critical question: is this piano from Elgin?????

If any parts have been replaced, are we sure that they all came from an identical original piano? Often, pianos made at that time were made in pairs; one was the "real" piano, and the other was just a container for spare parts. Because the production machines were less precise in those days, especially when working with wood, the only way to ensure that parts were interchangable was to make the pianos as a matching pair.

(no, Im just joking. And you probably wouldn't want broken old parts to be replaced with not-yet-broken old parts)

Sorry, I can't help it. I certainly understand your suspicion, as that comes from the confusion. The industry would be greatly helped if all companies had a more understandable numbering system. If I was in charge, a piano made recently would have a serial number like "2012 February xxxx", where the x's are whatever number it is on the production line; and I'd also say the actual city it was made in.