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Re: Yamaha C2 in concert... Not bad...
jivemutha #1849336 02/21/12 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by jivemutha
Originally Posted by AJF
. . . you can get an equivalent sized Estonia or Shigeru Kawai for the same price I would put the Yamaha C series


Not true. Check out Fine's SMPs. The bottom end Shigeru has an SMP of over $43K. The tiniest Estonia has an SMP of almost $40K, at only 5'6". The SMP for a C2 is $30K. While SMP numbers are higher than you'd likely pay, what reason do you have to believe that these vastly different SMPs would translate into the same sales prices between C2s and these more upscale (and more expensive) pianos?


I'm talking about in the real world, not a book of price lists.
Those prices do not factor in market conditions and location. They are a starting point but most definitely not a bible.

Last edited by AJF; 02/21/12 08:16 PM.


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Re: Yamaha C2 in concert... Not bad...
AJF #1849371 02/21/12 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by AJF
I'm talking about in the real world, not a book of price lists. Those prices do not factor in market conditions and location. They are a starting point but most definitely not a bible.


Does that mean you've actually seen equivalent prices recently? If so, what's that price? As I said, Fine's SMPs are not what people pay, but they do typically reflect RELATIVE differences. This case, they're not close, so I'd be surprised to find out these instruments with radically different SMPs go for the same amount. If I'm wrong, I'd be glad to hear the details.

Re: Yamaha C2 in concert... Not bad...
andrevazpereira #1849390 02/21/12 11:00 PM
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the piano buyer 'map of the market' is woefully out of date, and categorizations seem based more on retail price and hearsay than anything. C7s retail for 65k now, yet no one need pay that much. personally, i haven't seen any charles walter, petrof or estonias on major venues, unlike some 'professional grade' pianos listed.

Re: Yamaha C2 in concert... Not bad...
Entheo #1849398 02/21/12 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Entheo
the piano buyer 'map of the market' is woefully out of date, and categorizations seem based more on retail price and hearsay than anything. C7s retail for 65k now, yet no one need pay that much. personally, i haven't seen any charles walter, petrof or estonias on major venues, unlike some 'professional grade' pianos listed.


Fine acknowledges that MSRP are way out of line with real prices. He does, however, suggest that while his SMPs are also just that--absolute maximums that someone presumably pays only if they're special ordering a piano in a small town in inland Alaska (OK--I admit that specific categorization is mine, not Fine's), the SMPs do provide at least a modicum of RELATIVE street prices.

Thus, if, for example, you discover that in your area a real street price for piano X is 80% of the SMP (and 70% of MSRP), then my read of Fine is that he's suggesting that perhaps we should ignore the MSRP but consider that 80% of SMP on an unrelated piano might not be a totally crazy street price.

Does your comment above about Charles Walter, Petrof, and Estonias mean that you don't know what they actually sell for, or does it mean something else? I don't understand. (I don't know what they sell for. I'm curious what you meant.) Thanks in advance for a reply.

Re: Yamaha C2 in concert... Not bad...
jivemutha #1849449 02/22/12 01:58 AM
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Fine prices do not apply to Canada. Yamaha prices in Canada are much closer to MSRP than they are in the US. People will pay more, so they take more. No different with other makers really. Nobody intentionally sells for less than the market will bear. Think NY Steinway for a US comparison.



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Re: Yamaha C2 in concert... Not bad...
Entheo #1849504 02/22/12 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Entheo
the piano buyer 'map of the market' is woefully out of date, and categorizations seem based more on retail price and hearsay than anything. C7s retail for 65k now, yet no one need pay that much.
It seems as if you're quoting the MSRP for the C7. The whole point of the Piano Buyer is that the MSRP should be ignored and buyers should be looking at the SMP which is 55K. Take 10-30% off that for the street price.

Not sure what you mean by "heresay", but the Fine rankings are based on the opinion of numerous techs and other industry professsionals together with Fine's own opinions. "Out of date" seems especially the wrong term to use as the PB is probably most up to date book in terms of its figures and Fine probably has a greater knowledge of the entire piano industry than almost anyone on the planet.

Re: Yamaha C2 in concert... Not bad...
jivemutha #1849515 02/22/12 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by jivemutha
Does your comment above about Charles Walter, Petrof, and Estonias mean that you don't know what they actually sell for, or does it mean something else? I don't understand. (I don't know what they sell for. I'm curious what you meant.) Thanks in advance for a reply.


yeah i was being circuitous. here's my point:

i take issue with PB categorizing the yamaha C series below the tier 3 pianos. there are two brands that dominate the concert, performance and recording venues: steinway and yamaha (C, CXA & CF). the C7 dominates in recording studio usage. perhaps it's because yamaha uses state of the art manufacturing technology and ISO SOPs to build their products and not Giuseppe & son hand-chipping bridges by candlelight in a romantic workroom in the back of the factory. smirk

sound notwithstanding (that being subjective), the quality of workmanship on my C7 is much better than it was on my M&H (a tier 2 piano) which, not unlike the other poster's complaint about the quality of his MH harp, mine too came brand new with lots of chips, dings, and a rather poor spray job (i did notice the imperfections but love turned a blind eye). the harp, fit & finish on my C7 is immaculate (i'm not suggesting it's in the same category as the tier ones). also, of the many pianos i've played the shigeru kawaii and yamaha actions come out on top (for me anyway).

i can understand the yamaha G series being classified as tier 4, but scratch my head at the C series being put there, especially in light of "Yamaha's quality control and its warranty and tech service are legendary in the piano business. They are the standard against which every other company is measured." (PB)

Re: Yamaha C2 in concert... Not bad...
Entheo #1849556 02/22/12 10:44 AM
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[quote=Entheo
i can understand the yamaha G series being classified as tier 4, but scratch my head at the C series being put there, especially in light of "Yamaha's quality control and its warranty and tech service are legendary in the piano business. They are the standard against which every other company is measured." (PB)[/quote]

I don't know either, but maybe it has something to do with sound?

fingers


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Re: Yamaha C2 in concert... Not bad...
andrevazpereira #1849562 02/22/12 11:10 AM
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I don't know if anyone has mentioned the touch of the Yamaha C2. To me, it didn't have a "forgiving" touch. The enjoyment level of playing wasn't there for me. Some pianos just make one want to play and play, but the black keys bothered me when I played this Yamaha C2, and I played the C3 and got the same feeling.

I'm not a lazy player, but I want my piano to help me as much as it can. This piano sounded good though. But I felt I had to fight a bit more to get out the sound I desired! I don't like to fight! grin


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Re: Yamaha C2 in concert... Not bad...
fingers #1849568 02/22/12 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by fingers
I don't know either, but maybe it has something to do with sound?


the beauty of the sound lies in the ear of the beholder; very very subjective call if indeed that's the case. i'll put my C7's sound up against any comparably sized tier 1 piano...

http://www.box.com/s/0lia1ms5c3ri0l735409

(good speakers or headphone required)

Re: Yamaha C2 in concert... Not bad...
andrevazpereira #1849581 02/22/12 11:49 AM
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Back on topic,

Great playing and I have to admit the Yamaha C2 sounds really nice here. Surprising for a piano of only 5'8".

I actually played a private party this past weekend, and the owner of the house had an RX-2 and I was really shocked at how well it worked in the room, plus the overall tone, even in the lower register.


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Re: Yamaha C2 in concert... Not bad...
Entheo #1849591 02/22/12 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Entheo
. . . there are two brands that dominate the concert, performance and recording venues: steinway and yamaha (C, CXA & CF). the C7 dominates in recording studio usage.


At least here in the U.S., Entheo's comment about S&S and Yamaha dominating concert, performance, and recording venues can hardly be questioned. Entheo goes on to make some plausible and reasonable guesses as to why that might be so (which I have not quoted above, but can be found in his full comment).

QUESTION: Can anyone who has actual knowledge of how recording studios and concert halls pick their pianos further enlighten us as to why, mostly to the exclusion of other pianos, S&S and Yamaha dominate these fields? I must say, I'm curious.

Re: Yamaha C2 in concert... Not bad...
andrevazpereira #1849609 02/22/12 12:17 PM
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Judging sound quality is very subjective...however, not all ears are created equal, and some have trained their ears to be very sensitive. I've talked to several piano technicians and pianists alike who have felt that Yamaha grands (ex. the C series) fall short because they produce an "uninteresting sound". Honestly, as a young pianist, my ears cannot discern this "uninterestingness", can anyone help me out here?


"Play Bach constantly. That will be your best means of progress." -F.Chopin
Re: Yamaha C2 in concert... Not bad...
jivemutha #1849610 02/22/12 12:18 PM
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I know for a fact that a lot of people that run recording studious don't know squat about pianos, and just chose a piano from a brand they know and trust.


"Play Bach constantly. That will be your best means of progress." -F.Chopin
Re: Yamaha C2 in concert... Not bad...
Entheo #1849658 02/22/12 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Entheo
Originally Posted by fingers
I don't know either, but maybe it has something to do with sound?


the beauty of the sound lies in the ear of the beholder; very very subjective call if indeed that's the case. i'll put my C7's sound up against any comparably sized tier 1 piano...

http://www.box.com/s/0lia1ms5c3ri0l735409

(good speakers or headphone required)


Very nice recording.
smile

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Re: Yamaha C2 in concert... Not bad...
kdr152004 #1849663 02/22/12 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by kdr152004
I've talked to several piano technicians and pianists alike who have felt that Yamaha grands (ex. the C series) fall short because they produce an "uninteresting sound". Honestly, as a young pianist, my ears cannot discern this "uninterestingness", can anyone help me out here?


Technicians do sometimes say this. Among players, however, if you ask a bunch of people I think you'll find a split. A relatively significant number of classical players will say just what you've said above. In contrast, most jazz players seem to love Yamahas (and I'm not focusing here on the famous ones like Chick Corea).

Larry Fine even makes a special point of this in The Piano Book. I've asked on PW why this is so, but have not gotten answers.

I'm a jazz player. If I had to guess, I would say that when your chords are filled with augmented 11ths and suspended fourths paired with minor 9th, etc., you don't want too "interesting" a sound from the instrument itself. The notes themselves are so complex that just a clean plain sound is enough and arguably even best! However, that's just my guess.

Re: Yamaha C2 in concert... Not bad...
jivemutha #1850102 02/23/12 10:23 AM
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I know what your saying jivemutha, but I was looking for something for along the lines of the timbre of individual notes


"Play Bach constantly. That will be your best means of progress." -F.Chopin
Re: Yamaha C2 in concert... Not bad...
Thrill Science #1850686 02/24/12 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Thrill Science
Beautiful performance. I agree about the Yamaha C series.

It's probably the biggest bang for the buck out there; and IMHO beats the equivalent sized Steinway S, M, and L.

The one you played had a remarkably clear treble.


Thank you!

I´m afraid i agree... This August i went to Seinway in Hamburg and tryed all hamburg models (minus de D, but that one i already know) and got the impression that small tail steinway aren`t (for me) as eficient as bigger and better ones are (in terms of macanism)... So i think there is not a point in prefering these very expensive pianos (more 50 000 Eur in Hamburg) if they are not very VERY good in all items...

But my point was to aproach the C2 has a very equivalent to the C3. And that for me was a bit surprising... I grew up in a world of C3 and never felt that less than C3 was a good option (technicaly and musicaly).

Greetings

Re: Yamaha C2 in concert... Not bad...
Rickster #1850690 02/24/12 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Rickster
Wonderful performance, and the piano sounded great! I love that bright "pop" in the upper treble.

Rick



Yeah!! Bright "pop"!! Sometimes you just can`t cover it in a yamaha...

Re: Yamaha C2 in concert... Not bad...
jivemutha #1850698 02/24/12 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by jivemutha
Originally Posted by Thrill Science
Beautiful performance. I agree about the Yamaha C series.

It's probably the biggest bang for the buck out there; and IMHO beats the equivalent sized Steinway S, M, and L.


While it may not beat a good Steinway (unlike new Yamahas' predictability, Steinways vary quite a bit and some are less than terrific), it is certainly a better deal, buck for buck, as we Americans would say.

A C3 costs quite a bit more and takes up space some of us just don't have (6'1" for the C3 vs. 5'8" for the C2), but if you have the space and the considerably larger amount of money, I'd suggest at least playing a C3, as it has quite a bit more presence, not that the C2 isn't a fine instrument.

I'm getting a C2. I don't think a C3 would even fit up the stairs, which allows me to not second guess my decision. That said, if money and space were no object, I'd get a C3. Good luck.


Yes, if you have the money and the space i would go to a C3 and spent some good money in technical improvment. I have a friend that did some years a go and he`s still very impressed with the mechanism. He had a very good guy working on the piano for several hours and it really helped!! He studied Liszt sonata in it and it didn`t loose any precision... Only tuning...but thats normal...

But anyway C2 is also an option and didn`t know that...
Greetings

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