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While there is no doubt that environmental humidity control is the best first line of defense, I have no doubt that any damage to the piano caused by external humidity control operation or service (and I have seen that happen) would also be void any warranty.

Using a couple of digital hygrometers (not anything as nice or accurate as what you technicians have), I took a measurement during the winter from the action cavity with the piano closed, overnight. I repeated this over 2 days, once with the DC + undercover, and a second time with the DC alone. RH in the room was identical both days- 23%

The results in the action cavity overnight were certainly less noticeable than that around the "belly" of the piano, but there was still a difference:

Room RH: 23%
RH in action cavity, overnight, DC w/ undercover: 27%
RH in action cavity, overnight, DC w/o undercover: 25%

The RH difference in the area of the soundboard was much more dramatic (even more with the undercover installed, in the high 40% range on either side of the board).

In our case, my desire to have better room humidity control continues to fall on deaf ears, so the DC w/undercover is as good as it's going to get for my Steinway.

A 2% difference in RH with and without undercover is not enough of a difference to confirm anything, in my opinion. I installed a full system in a Kawai GS 100. They use a piano cover, but I have not installed an undercover. The DC system has helped stabilize this piano so tunings hold longer. It's in a church, and thanks to ASHRAE, outside air blows into the building, making the environment a bit unstable. I still tune the piano every two months, but it's held much better between tunings since the install. Total pitch drop this winter has been 5 cents...3 cents in December, and another two this month.

For most of North America, the fact is that all measures taken are still not enough. In other words, no one system or combination could ever be too much.

"...The installation of a Dampp-Chaser system in a Steinway piano will not, in itself, void the manufacturer’s warranty; however, Environmental humidity control, rather than a system installed in the piano, is also best for people, pets, and furniture.

STEINWAY & SONS"

True enough. I recommend both. For that concert grand, storage in a humidified room with a Dampp-Chaser system also operating and a full quilt cover, (under cover too, why not?), then when it is brought on stage, the D-C system still engaged (a heavy duty power cord would be required) then, the piano closed when not in use and covered if not in use for any more than a few hours would work wonders. I know, I service two concert halls and two churches where that is done, 2 Steinway D's and 2 B's.

For three of these, the before and after difference in tuning stability and tuning pin torque consistency was dramatic: like night and day. The second church had the system installed right after delivery over the advice NOT to do it from the dealer. I told the music director it would be the best and really only effective measure to keep the piano sounding good week after week. He is very persuasive with anyone he deals with because he is an extraordinarily gifted musician. He totally trusts in what I tell him too. I have known him for more than two decades.

Hearing of these two contrasting opinions, the church board decided to ask how the $250,000 Hamburg D is maintained at the fabulous concert hall downtown. The answer was that it is kept in a small storage room with a heavy quilt cover and humidity control system operating at all times. The piano is also tuned and maintained in that room. Only when it is time for the piano to be brought on stage for a piano concerto (which is virtually the only use it gets), the system is disconnected and the piano is ceremoniously wheeled out on stage by four men who have a practiced procedure for removing and rolling up the cover, the lid is opened, the artist comes on stage and plays the concerto.

When the concert is over or at intermission, the piano is covered again, put back into its room and the humidity control system re-connected. That quilt not only helps maintain moisture within the piano, it prevents accidental damage to the high polish finish that in seven years of use does not have a single blemish on it. They like it that way and they want to keep it that way.

The scenario that was described by the original poster is a nightmare! Keeping the piano in that humidified room is fine as far as it goes. But the moment the piano comes out of that room and on stage, it begins to lose pitch and go out of tune. If left out for several days, it will be seriously off pitch and out of tune. If it is tuned on the stage and put back in that room, it will go sharp! That is as bad or worse than letting the humidity control system run dry for a week and then watering it after it has been tuned in a dried out state.

Of course, the piano technician will get the blame. The claim will be that the "piano is stored in a humidified room" so, that can't be the reason. "Yes, but only intermittently, it is out of there most of the time" will be dismissed. The same holds true if it has a Dampp-Chaser system whose red light blinks most of the time. "It has that water thing you made us buy!" "Yes, but it is allowed to run dry more often than it gets water." That will be dismissed too because absolutely NOBODY will take responsibility for watering it.

I actually heard this complaint from a university professor who had a Steinway in his home: "There must be something wrong with that system you made me buy because the red light comes on only three days after the yellow one does!" "You must water the piano as soon as you see the yellow light", was the reply. "But that would mean I would have to water it EVERY week!". "Yes, as often as it needs it". "Well, I can't be bothered with THAT!"

That professor had bought an older used Steinway that had been reconditioned. He was originally from Europe and liked to keep his house at 74 degrees F during winter,; otherwise he felt chilly. He regarded the whole humidity issue as nonsense. He had never heard of such things before. Within five years of purchase, the entire soundboard was riddled with cracks and there were vertical cracks in the bridge roots too. It had buzzes all over the place. It was complete toast.

So, there you go. People can often be amazingly foolish about these things. Unfortunately, foolish notions often prevail.

Also, I agree that the "smart bar" was a good addition to the system but the idea that an foot long, 8 watt heating element alone would damage the soundboard is rather far-fetched. If a soundboard failed when the owner neglected to water the system, it is far more likely that the general environment was the major factor.

I agree with Bill in that 8 watts is not going to damage anything.

Hi Elizabeth,

Try to remember your password, nice to see your posts here.

If, as you say, the winter RH in your area is often less than 5%, (makes my skin itch just thinking about it) I would say that damage will likely occur to this piano without a Dampp-Chaser installed. That 5% is less than the EMC that pianomakers shoot for when drying their soundboards before installing, so exposing that unprotected board to those types of conditions can't be good. Even at 20% RH the piano is in danger, but 5%? To me that's a really scary number.

If it were my piano, I'd install a dual-tank DC system along with an undercover, and I'd get the thickest padded cover I could find. I also like the alarm idea but wonder if it could go off at an untimely moment during a performance.

Any time the piano is not in use it should be completely closed up and covered. I would also try to increase the room humidity in both the storage and stage locations. Even your summer humidity levels are far below the target of 40-50% for pianos. And I agree with others above that the DC can be of benefit to the entire instrument when it's always buttoned up between performances.

Wow, it's simply mindblowing that you are being forced to remove the one thing that actually might prevent the piano from falling apart over the next few years. Also, you are the piano expert here and yet your professional opinion is being overruled by laypeople, which I find to be highly disrespectful, not to mention foolish and irresponsible. Maybe it's best to cut the client loose and walk away? Good luck.

I inherited a situation where a small recital hall had a ramshacle room humidity system that was so noisy it was swithched off at the beginning of the day and nobody switched it on again until 9.30pm.

The building supervisor was taking readings personally morning and evening and, of course getting an average that looked quite reasonable. (this was a condition of the guarantee on the organ.). The extremes were,well, extreme and the piano would not stay in tune and the organ was continually playing up. The organ builder refused to allow a unit internal to the organ. I pointed out to them that the system they had was like sleeping with your head in the oven and feet in the refrigerator and claiming that, on average you were quite comfortable.

We live in a data driven society interpreted by people who never step out from behind their desks.

My solution was that because the organ was a copy of one that still stood in a nearby chapel for 250 years with no humidity control and was still being used with a rebuild some years ago. Par for the course. why couldn't this one? Also In the chapel was a similar make and model piano that held it's tuning admirably. We finished up with no control at all. Ours was a no cost solution and everything works fine now but I had to get all concerned parties together to deal with the problem. Also we are in a part of the world that doesn't have such an adverse climate.

The same solution applies. Steinways are very helpful with new piano clients. Has anybody asked them for more detaled sugestions?

An atmosphere such as you describe is also not an ideal atmosphere for singers, or, for that matter other wooden musical instruments. Or even an audience. Is it a new building? How long was the piano in there with no humidity system? How long was it in there with its own humidity system?

Everything points to a room humidity system that includes the room where the piano is kept

This could be expensive.

Expense is not your concern. Getting it right so that the piano doesn't suffer is the Universities' concern. You and Steinways are their advisors.

I have been amazed how finances can suddenly turn up, even in this economic climate.

Does development know of the situation? They keep a little black book for grants, etc.

Get some quotes for a system that keeps both rooms at the same levels. This will cost nothing but will give you valuable information concerning what will have to happen.

Keep what you currently have on the piano until the situation is resolved, no catastrophe is likely to happen.

Bring in or at least notify the vocal dept. and all parties concerned or likely to be concerned. Health and safety. The architect. Sometimes the hot lights are made to serve as part of the heating system It's simply too dry.

A problem shared is a problem halved.

I have something to do. Let me post this now and come back and edit for clarity later.

Just to clarify, there is a huge difference between RH and EMC. I don't have the tables in front of me, but if memory serves, RH of close to 20% at normal temperatures will dry wood to around 5% EMC. Over time, 5% RH would certainly dry wood to much lower EMC levels than 5%. I would agree that 5% RH is something like a death sentence for most pianos and will certainly void any warranty.

Elizabeth, you may want to print out the responses to this thread and present them.

After reading through all of these responses from professional piano technicians, I don't see a single one that takes the side against the use of Dampp-Chaser systems. We all know, of course that they need to be carefully and properly installed. The double tank system is called for and the humidifiers need to be placed in the closest position possible to the soundboard and the moisture distribution sheet MUST be installed.

Additionally, the power cord supplied by the manufacturer must not be configured so that it reaches the floor. Having it extend outside of the piano by a few inches is best, then a heavy duty power cord connected to it. In such situations, an orange cord is often used during work and rehearsal periods so that it is seen by personnel. For performances, a black cord is used so that it is not easily seen by the audience and is often taped down or put through a cord runner so that no one trips or stumbles on it.

Other such equipment which needs a power cord gets this kind of attention but for some reason, people seem to thing it odd for a piano to be "plugged in". I have often run into an artist's manager who wanted the piano unplugged for the concert saying, "The piano won't dry out in a few hours, lose the cord". I and the stage technician refuse that order every time. Yes, it will dry out in a few hours and particularly under the circumstances you cite.

Someone mentioned playing "hardball". A piano technician has always been seen as a man's occupation but that is a stereotype. Among the successful women technicians I know of, they are the most strong willed people I know. They have to be. I don't know how much competition there would be for your job but if there isn't any or not much, you would have some built in leverage.

I agree with what Eric Gloo said and I was going to suggest it myself. I would compile all of the answers that are given here, print them up (edit out anything superfluous) and present them to the people you deal with but especially the dealer. If you have not yet uninstalled the system, refuse to do it. If it is not a double tank system, insist that it be upgraded and add the bottom cover. Insist on a heavy duty power cord and a heavy duty cover and a protocol for how the piano is handled, moved, stored and otherwise maintained, particularly the monitoring and watering of the humidifiers.

General environment humidification can be very expensive and there are many considerations. Warm, moisturized air tends to pass through walls and get into insulation and cause unforeseen problems. So, yes, experts on that need to be consulted. Generally speaking, the colder and drier it is outside, the less you can boost indoor humidity without causing damage to the building. The Dampp-Chaser system serves to take over where general environment humidity systems meet their limitations. Both are clearly needed and you must insist upon both.

Put your foot down. If you can survive without this contract, give them an ultimatum. If you do not feel you can do it effectively in person, write up a carefully worded letter to all it may concern (copied for sure to the dealer), with all of the supportive comments. Tell them that as a professional, you cannot take responsibility for your work and the longevity of the piano unless certain basic problems are resolved to your satisfaction.

You may well be shown the door but let happen what will in that case. Let them do it their way, toast the piano and let them void their own warranty and let the dealer eat crow. You may get another chance a few years later with a brand new instrument and all of the protection it requires.

I do wish you good luck in this matter and I hope you will keep us posted.