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Hi all!

I've been enjoying reading your posts without responding, as I am continuously forgetting my PW password. This issue merited getting a new one.

I was recently authorized to install a Dampp-Chaser in the new Steinway D at the local university. Afterward, the powers that be discussed this with the Steinway dealer, who strongly discouraged use of a D-Ch, in favor of installing a room humidifier. Now, I am scheduled to remove the system this week.

The environment is rough for this piano. Humidity measures at a consistent <5%RH this time of year, reaching up to 25%-30%RH during a summer rainstorm. The proposed room humidifier would be in the off-stage room the D is usually in, but the stage area is always dry. Additionally, it is often onstage for a day or two at a time.

Knowing how things run in the school, I have doubts that a room humidifier would be filled daily. I'm also worried about how the piano will respond from going back and forth between humid and dry rooms.

Needless to say, this is frustrating for me, after having already spent much of my own time in solving this situation for them. I seem to have hit a wall with the Steinway dealer's recommendations. Can anyone lend some advice? Have you met a similar situation?

In my college, we have our concert instruments located and LOCKED in a room that is humidity controlled however, we also have a 2 piece DC system on each piano as well. Those pianos do not reside continually ONLY in that humidity controlled room. Sometimes they will sit on stage for several days at a time for various concerts where the humidity is not controlled at all. Have them contact Steinway directly, NOT the dealer. Or, show them information downloaded from the Dampp Chaser website supporting your decision on installing one. I highly recommend it because they work when properly taken care of.

I agree with Jer. Contact Kent Webb at Steinway directly and tell him about the situation.
KWebb@steinway.com

Steinway (the company) endorses the Dampp-Chaser in writing.

Contact Dammp-Chaser, too. Let them know about this.

They have long lists of conservatories, universities, and cultural institutions that are using D-C systems. I'm sure they would be happy to provide you with their lists.

From your original post:


It seems obvious that a portable humidity control system that moves with the piano would be the best way to go in this situation.

Edit: Only you can judge the situation, but it may be time to play a little hardball:
You could have the school ask the dealership to provide a signed statement in writing recommending that the D-C unit be removed, including the reasons. I wonder what the dealer will say when asked...

If you want, you could then offer to provide a signed statement indicating why you recommend the D-C system over just humidifying the storage room, including that the D-C system travels with the piano.

Thank you all, for responding! I have messages in to Kent Webb, and Dampp-Chaser, but I'm not sure how far it'll get me. Apparently, the seminar Kent just gave in Spokane included discussion against D-Ch altogether. Loren, do you know where I can find that endorsement?
I just love how administrators value the opinion of a dealer (interested in selling) over a technician (much more interested in long-term performance). Apparently, I need to learn how to project more authority. Perhaps after another 16 years at this job, eh?

Hmm...in Dampp-Chaser's past brochures, there was a list of manufacturers that endorse the system, and one of the endorsements was from Steinway. I just checked a recent brochure and the endorsement is absent from the list.

Interesting....

I could not find any references on their website either. Of course they have completely redone their site since the last time I was there...so perhaps I missed it.


FWIW, I'm really happy with the D-C full system in my 'B', and I don't care whether or not Steinway blesses D-C systems anymore.

I only remember Steinway stating that DampChasers did NOT void the warranty.

I have always kept in mind the possibility that a warranty issue could be blamed on the DC system and or the installer. This may seem a bit paranoid, but I always make sure the decision to install is made by the customer.

In case the proposed removal goes through I suggest getting a digital humidity data logger and placing it on the beams under the soundboard. Then, after a few months (or a season or two) you can show unequivocally what environmental conditions the piano is being exposed to. The resulting data should provide solid and unquestionable information on which to base further measures.

I just checked the piano tech only site of Dampp-Chaser and this was on it.

Steinway & Sons

"The installation of a Dampp-Chaser Humidity Control System can, in our opinion, provide a degree of climate control for the piano which may not otherwise be attainable."

On the public site no mention of Steinway.

Thanks, Wayne. That's the statement that used to appear in the DC brochures and literature.

edit: And you're right, it appears on the private tech area of the site, not the public.

As a non-tech who teaches in a university music department--

Have the piano faculty been included in this discussion? Often times the administration doesn't communicate with the people who actually use and teach on these instruments (for that matter, sometimes the techs don't either...).

Can you demonstrate the ravages of insufficient climate control on the instruments currently in your care (i.e. not protected by either a DC or additional humidification)? I can point to two of our concert instruments that have suffered significant problems due to insufficient humidity control at a very young age, and they (allegedly) add a little humidity to the HVAC in the winter here. (RH is in the low 20's in the dead of winter) I'm talking about things like soundboards collapsing, ribs buzzing, failed pinblocks, and bridge caps showing cracks at the pins.

We now have DC systems installed in 5 pianos: four piano teaching studios, and one concert hall piano. 3 of the 4 piano teachers monitor their systems regularly. The other is currently sitting unplugged with pads that are over a year old and probably caked solid with crud. The concert hall installation was probably used for 10 days and then permanently unplugged. I don't know if the problem was water splashing out of the tank when being moved around or people not wanting to maintain it & keep it plugged in.

The system on my piano (full install with undercover) can easily push the RH > 40% on either side of the soundboard when the room humidity is down in the low 20% range in winter. I keep the piano fully closed when I leave work everyday. Tuning seems very stable at this point, and I'm noticing our tech hasn't been around to tune as often...

I would imagine (again, just a layperson talking here) humidity levels as low as the OP describes could provide grounds for denial of warranty coverage in the future. If this is true, does your administrator/piano faculty know this?

fwiw, our Steinway dealer had no problem installing systems on our recent purchases. They did the work themselves.

It would probably be better for the piano if it kept the DC. But on the other hand, it's their piano, and if they want to keep the DC installed, that's their right, as long you were paid for both the installation and the removal. Also at stake is your working relationship with the college - do you want to continue your work with them? If they end up without a DC in their piano, that could mean more tunings for you, and in a few years there will probably be a nice dramatic crack in the soundboard that you can sadly point to and suggest they get a new piano.

Best of luck whatever happens, it doesn't sound like an easy situation.

Well. Here's the thing. For any humidity management system to work, they need to be monitored and maintained, and if they are not, the results may well be worse than it otherwise would be.

The best practice in a situation like this would be to have the building's humidity controlled plus DCs for all the pianos, with a hired student assistant to water them every week.

Even still, the problem with DCs in any institutional setting is that they get unplugged; especially pianos that get moved. The solution to this is to install an unplug alarm that goes off when the DC loses power.

Again, thank you for all the replies, it does help!

To follow up, I received the following from Kent Webb:


Steinway & Sons does not recommend nor endorse Dampp-Chaser products installed in the piano but as a last resort suggestion where environmental climate-control measures are impossible or not feasible to implement. Not that the Dampp-Chaser doesn't work; it is usually very effective for its intended purpose, but things can go wrong. If not properly installed or maintained it can damage the piano and void the warranty. Another disadvantage is that the Dampp-Chaser targets the soundboard only; that is, it controls the moisture content of the soundboard and thereby imparts tuning stability, but it does not affect or remedy the effects of humidity on the piano in its entirety.



Steinway & Sons recommends environmental humidity control such as room dehumidifiers and room humidifiers or environmental climate-control systems because they affect a piano in its entirety and thereby safeguard it from the effects of excessive humidity swings.



We have always advised environmental climate control where necessary for the maintenance of Steinway pianos. The use of room humidifiers or dehumidifiers and other environmental climate-control measures are sometimes necessary in order to provide a suitable environment for the piano. The use of a hygrometer in the vicinity of the piano is recommended in order to monitor humidity changes. Drastic swings or even gradual fluctuations of relative humidity in excess of 30 points on the hygrometric scale are excessive enough to affect the piano and would indicate the need for protective measures to be taken in the piano's overall environment in order to protect and preserve the piano and its various components such as the soundboard, action, wrestplank, and the finish.



The Dampp-Chaser system, installed inside the piano, is designed to help maintain a consistent moisture content in the soundboard only and thereby to improve tuning stability. The Dampp-Chaser however is not intended for nor is it effective in protecting other components such as the finish, action, and wrestplank of a grand piano kept in an environment of unsuitable humidity conditions.



The installation of a Dampp-Chaser system in a Steinway piano will not, in itself, void the manufacturer’s warranty; however, if any functional or structural damage to the piano should occur because of the unit’s improper installation, operation, or service, then the piano’s warranty would indeed be voided.



Environmental humidity control, rather than a system installed in the piano, is also best for people, pets, and furniture.



STEINWAY & SONS


I will be removing the system this week, and attaching a humidity data logger to the piano. (excellent suggestion, Jurgen, thanks) Hopefully they'll allow me to put the D-Ch into one of the faculty pianos, as I have parts to make that work. Then we'll go from there.

This is the second time I've heard the argument that the soundboard could warp or otherwise be damaged by the water tank. There must have been some really bad installations out there - I've sure never seen this!

At least I'll have job security with the constantly fluctuated piano now, right?

The first sentence of his reply would indicate that a D-C installation is correct in this case:
Steinway & Sons does not recommend nor endorse Dampp-Chaser products installed in the piano but as a last resort suggestion where environmental climate-control measures are impossible or not feasible to implement.[Emphasis added]

This piano is mobile. It is routinely moved from storage to the stage. The piano is likely to have more stability issues if it is routinely moved from a humidity controlled room to a dry stage. The soundboard is more likely to split because of the fluctuations in humidity. Btw, this doesn't have to be an either/or thing... Why not humidity control the storage area AND use the Dammp-Chaser?

Edit: So what if a D-C unit only controls the humidity of the soundboard? (Btw, there are some of us on this list who would dispute that a D-C unit has no effect on the wrestplank or action.) This piano is a special case. It is used for public performance. FOR PUBLIC PERFORMANCE. It is unacceptable to have the piano drifting under these circumstances. The humidistat of a D-C unit sits very close to the soundboard to keep the humidity there very consistent.

Again, you gave very good advice re the installation of a D-C unit. It's a pity that you are not being listened to.

I have a lot of respect for Kent Webb and know him personally. However, anyone who works for Steinway has to say things sometimes that they don't believe themselves or get shown the door. I am also amazed at the number of dealers who could be adding to their bottom line by installing systems before the piano leaves the dealership, yet they forgo substantial profits by believing what some ill-informed people say.

If a concert grand is covered by a heavy quilt cover when not in use as most are, the moisture produced by the humidifiers will, in fact permeate throughout the piano. Yes, the system does "target" the soundboard but hour after hour of operation under the quilt, the moisture cannot disappear into the soundboard wood alone. It has to go somewhere else.

The dealer is misinformed and has no expertise in the matter, yet he is calling the shots. I really sympathize with you in this matter because you are essentially in a dilemma. They are forcing you to take out the one thing that you know will be beneficial yet it will be you who is to blame when the piano does not stay in tune, the soundboard cracks, the finish deteriorates and the tuning pins get loose. Telling them. "I tried to tell you" afterward won't get you anywhere either except out the door.

The problem, particularly with older DCs, is that the tank rod would not shut off if the system ran out of water. This could inevitably damage the soundboard.

Very true. The new systems are light years ahead of the old ones technologically.