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Scep, harmonic outlining is still VERY VALID. It is still the foundation of my thoughts. But I'm starting to think of harmonic movement beyond the original chords.

Obviously, I post the music where I'm trying this out. So no. I still play Autumn Leaves with harmonic outlining. In fact, that's 90% of what I play.

So yes, just react to what you hear, positively or negatively and if we avoid the "historical" context of how it got there then I'll take that reaction accordingly.

If I can't try out these advanced ideas here and potentially fail, I don't have any other forum. I can't experiment at a gig first.

I never understood the "chord tone on downbeat" thingie.

It's as if the music was made of notes rather than ideas.

Scep, Alan Pasqua is the head of the Jazz program at University of Southern California. Bill Cunliffe is at Cal State Fullerton. Both are Grammy nominated/Grammy winning artists aside from being monster world-class players in their own right.

I think they won't lead me to the wrong path.

There are things and what you guys play that I don't like too. Sometimes I state it. Sometimes I don't. I'm happy to listen to all critique because I'm early in my journey. So please feel free to continue to critique actual playing.

I agree that talking about 'talk' isn't as clear.

It can really be summarized in a simple term of "outlining harmony". That's clearly what Bebop does and it's embedded in the style.

It's an excellent framework for understanding what makes a good solo. The contrasting approach is "chord vs. Scale" which is broader and can lead to fingers making the choices.

The next step is overlaying alternate harmony over the original changes (which apparently is a big source of debate).

I apologize if it seems that I'm being condescending or something. I really am only talking about vocabulary and how it contributes to music that reflects and understanding of the basics. I do, though, agree with Scep that I don't hear that understanding in your playing. Maybe you do understand the basics and you're just searching for your sound in advanced concepts now. If so, I am looking forward to hearing it start to come out.

You often say that you are on a different path, which to me, comes across as if you are saying that what you are doing is somehow beyond what any of us are understanding... that our paths are limited by a lack of ability to hear the things you hear. None of us are in any position to say that isn't true, and if you do hear something unique, that's great! I hope you're able to find it. Music is art and has a different meaning for everyone. I'll be the first to admit that. And you can play whatever makes you happy and there will always be people that will appreciate whatever you do.

I am reminded of something one of my professors in grad school said, "You can't fart in a microphone and call it jazz." Please don't take that personally. It's only meant to point out that the true masters of jazz know who's playing jazz and who isn't. And the only way to know if you are playing jazz in the true sense, is if you are being invited to play with the masters. Obviously, that's not happening for any of us, so what do we know?

But at any rate, all I can say is that to me, the basics are missing from your playing. And in my experience, advanced concepts have to keep their roots in the basics, which means you can always hear a traceable path back through all the advanced ideas. I can't hear that in your playing yet, so it leads me to believe that you're not understanding that. Just my viewpoint though. And as I said when starting this discussion, I only want to offer that viewpoint because we're here to support each other.

Oh, by the way, did you try the ear training I posted?

Ok. final BiaB posting. Promise.
This has a pseudo YellowJackets vibe, but what interests me is how does the programming work for creating space in the solos.
http://www.box.com/s/rn3er39bjko4hx3zzplf

I appreciate comments on my playing along specific lines, like, I don't like your note choices on 1:15. Or the idea didn't flow or I don't like the leap at 2:32.

In fact, I have had my teacher(s) listen to recordings I post here and so I get multiple reactions. But a teacher hasn't come to me and said "you don't understand the basics. You need to go back to square 1. You need to go study classical harmony". Perhaps they know where I've been or maybe understand where I'm going.

The list of flaws are huge as expected. But it's just interesting that the things I am told are completely different.

Now some do match, like "quoting myself", "let the idea stand out", "highlight the idea", "don't overplay", "give it more space".

But only here do I get comments that pertain to my understanding. Maybe I'm at a particular phase for this. But I seriously don't think my teachers are dumb. Nor am I the only student they've taught.

So it's probably best to critique my recordings and be as brutal and specific as you want. But I will probably ask a second opinion if your perception of something is inconsistent with what I hear.

I had one teacher listen to some version of Stella I posted which you guys said was "outside the harmony". And I got the answer: "they're wrong -- you're outlining the harmony". Now don't be upset when I believe the teacher in that case.

Ya, just make sure you're well prepared for the path because sometimes teachers of that level will make assumptions about your abilities, especially if you are able to talk about the theory.

On another note, since I haven't followed your other thread, I missed all of your ATTYA and AL recordings. Why not post some of your past and recent playing on those tunes here on this thread. I'm also playing those tunes now, and I still get stumped when I lose concentration.

Fair enough, but what makes me believe what you have to say is valid is whether or not you're able to actually play things that you're talking about. As for swing, or playing in the pocket, that is something else altogether, but I have to say it is hard to believe what you write when you're talking about melody or harmony when I don't hear the equivalent in your playing. Does that make sense?
And of course we all have our individual tastes, so I'm sure that not everything everyone plays is going to appeal to everyone else. But, I do tend to listen closely to those that have demonstrated good musical ideas and try to understand what they mean when they offer advice.

We'll see. I just don't like having to go through pages of defense of what I've said, so it makes me question whether a comment is then even necessary. So, I guess the point is you either post stuff that speaks for itself, or you receive the advice given that you may have missed the mark.

I remember another member on this forum stating that he tends to avoid giving advice because he feels that everyone should know what they have to work on. Maybe he was right?

I'm a glutton for punishment so here's a set of Stella excerpts I posted somewhere else to show the different Nord Piano samples. This was a couple of months ago.

Stella Excerpts
http://www.box.com/s/3uc0ayheil0hprny1tnb

This is solo piano and not in time. And you see me create 4 variances and notice harmonically they sound the same. Like I'm always making the same harmonic choices (which someone will disagree with). But it just indicates that I approached it a particular way that's consistent.

Fire away.

I probably like the last one best. It was played in time so maybe that gave me some structure to hold on to.

I preferred the first one.
I think your issue is rhythm. Not tones, scales, note choices . . . but rhythm.
I feel that you have a tendency to push your inner rhythm to hard; sometimes it's the LH sometimes its the RH. By overemphasising the beat, you loose a relaxedness. But sometimes it's there.
Also, I think you could use repetition much more, no need to play new stuff all the time, but stay within the pocket.

Now isn't that interesting. This is the kind of response I've heard from my teachers. Exactly what they would say.

So this one I agree! Of course I didn't play this in time though so I was trying to escape the judgement of rhythm when I did it.

But playing out of time allowed me to loosen up harmonically though.

Jazz is hard...

>>I think your issue is rhythm. Not tones, scales, note choices . . . but rhythm.
+1

That was nice playing though. Nicer than with the iphone app.

I agree

Ok. I've said this before, so it's a bit repetitive...
Your leaps (arpeggiated things) detract from the other melodic stuff that is happening. On these excerpts you're showing that you can move step-wise in within the diatonic scale, which is good. This is what your teachers are also seeing. The other stuff though, the stuff that started this whole mess of dialogue, is that you're introducing elements that are grating to the ears. To be fair there aren't many of them, but when they occur I'm not convinced that they are something anyone would say are good harmonic choices, whether they are justified by your account of extended harmonic structures, or whatever. What they sound like to me are simply mistakes.

So, the step-wise is fine. Some of it quite nice, really. But some of the leaps just don't work. The thing is, it's sometimes a case of one or two notes either at the beginning, within, or at the end of the arpeggiation, but the rest might be fine. In any case, the end result is an unmusical line.

One thing that also may help is to get your left hand involved in your extensions more. It sounds like a disconnect between what you may have intended and what actually came out. This happens to me all the time, especially with leaps. This is because to hear these things in real time can be challenging; far moreso than hearing stepwise motion.

We're full circle here, JW. You either dig in and say that everything you've played, especially the leaps, were absolutely intended, or you listen with someone elses ears for a bit and try to understand what it is that YOU said was bothering YOU when you began this whole mess.

Thanks guys. I was trying Footprints solo piano yesterday on the Grand and I was actually surprised at how well it comes out. Particularly with those "different" harmonies I outline.

Don't you think even my phrasing and note choices change in solo piano? It probably indicates that some parts of what I do aren't fully developed yet when subjected to the rigor of a time fixed form. My attention is someplace else.

Scep, I was bothered with the leaps. This was recorded a couple of months ago before I became super conscious of them. And that is a specific that I can relate to.

I think some of the leaps were automatic reactions that I strive to correct. So that's fine. When a leap doesn't have intent, then it sounds contrived, I find.

So where is the comment though about I'm out of harmony? Etc.

Repetition, building on an idea, etc. I acknowledge completely. But these are not "harmonic" issues. I just want to want to delve into the specific instead of "you suck at everything -- go back to basics" discussion, which is why I rant.

Some leaps, I don't like. But elements "grating" to your ears relate to the jagged intervals of "intervallic" playing that are part of what I do. So it's part of a specific influence I have. Thus they are not mistakes. But if I do it once then move on, they I didn't believe in it enough. Otherwise I would have repeated it.

If I were to do it differently, I'd repeat those. And make them a motif. That would really grate on your "structure".

As I said earlier, I'm not believing in my wrongness as much as in my lack of conviction and that is percieved as a mistake.

Here's something I made a long time ago (sometime last year). Harmonically and melodically, it's pretty traditional. I don't recall if Scep and Scott listened to it. I don't particularly remember any comments.

Body and Soul
http://www.box.com/s/st2kadn7833h8h0m0z7l

Who said you suck at everything? Basics are always worth revisiting, especially within a solo. So unless the basics are there underlying everything else, then it is hard to justify anything else.
I think you misinterpreted what going back to the basics means and why I'd recommend that everyone does it. When I hear something decent I'm not going to say otherwise. When I hear something weird, I'll either not say anything, or...

So, if we both agree that the leaps were a bit weird you need to look back at everything I wrote and try to understand what I meant again. Basic melodic structures still have to be in place, and especially so for any leaps, regardless if you're outlining 9s or 11s or whatevers, there will be intervals that ought to follow other intervals, and some that should probably be avoided (rather than sought out), at least until one knows how to get around the hard bits.

I have no problem with that comment Scep.

but do give a listen to Body and Soul. I'm interested in what you think of it. (last year's rhythmic problems aside)