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To call it a defect suggests it was unintended by Yamaha and that something is faulty. It clearly was intended so it's not a defect as such - but there just doesn't seem to be a sensible explanation!
In fact it's totally crazy that there is this noise-gate. ... I'm not sure it was intended. I'd have to see a schematic for this product and see how it was implemented. If it is a discrete implementation (extra transistor, etc) then I'd say it was probably intended since it wasn't removed. But if it is part of a multi-function analog IC taken from another product (and an undefeatable feature of that IC), it may have been used without the (inexperienced?) engineer realizing the function was in the IC, and changing the design was too time-consuming when it was finally discovered. The fact that it shows up as a troubleshooting problem in the manual, with no reasonable need for the function it performs, seems to suggest that it was somehow implemented by mistake.
Last edited by Macy; 02/08/12 08:41 PM.
Macy
CVP-409GP, Garritan CFX, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, Pianoteq, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad Pro/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere
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Whether or not Yamaha intended for there to be a noise-gate, IMHO from the customer's perspective the line input is "defective", because it does not function properly. I agree that it is plausible that it's there by pure accident - interesting thought! Regarding generating a background sound to defeat the noise-gate, here's a copy & paste from a post in an earlier thread: FWIW, here's a VST test tone generator that you could try using in your VST host alongside your virtual piano, to (hopefully) defeat the noise gate: http://mda.smartelectronix.com/ (download the plugins and extract the "TestTone" one. Set mode to "Sine" and adjust the frequency and level. Careful not to blow your speakers). If the idea works, it would be better if the test tone could be silenced when not required, to maintain headroom. I.e, it would continually monitor the (real) signal level, and only introduce the tone if the signal level drops below a threshold level. I'm sure a plugin developer could whip this up in no time. (I wonder whether some DAWs could be configured to do this, too) If you can't find a frequency & level that is inaudible, white noise might sound less intrusive I suppose. Greg.
Last edited by sullivang; 02/08/12 10:27 PM.
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One of the first adopters of the N3, who is a very valued member of PW, first found this problem and had some extensive correspondence with Yamaha regarding it. Yamaha are well aware of this characteristic and it is difficult to believe this happened by accident.
The N1 still has this problem and it was released ages after N3 and N2 so one can only draw the conclusion it was designed in to the AG series. Had it been a defect or fault then they would have changed the design for N1, surely?
Why did you do this Yamaha!!???
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Not sure if this has been mentioned, but the noise gate (which you cannot defeat) ruins and external audio playing through the N3's audio system.
I'll run my wife's laptop (which is more or less permanently connected to the N3) as the sound source for internet radio as well as playing back WAV or mp3 files to play against. I have never encountered any deficiency in the sound and if there is in fact a noise gate, I've never noticed it, never. (I also have a Symetrix 525 dual gated compressor\limiter in my rack case primarily for vocalists, so I'm familiar with setting thresholds to eliminate unwanted noise.)
Yamaha AvantGrand N1X | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
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Does this happen to other yamaha dpianos, I have a yamaha clp440 i like the sounds on the piano but wanted to add more , i was getting a copy of ivory 2 with an external usb sound card and was going to use the internal speakers on the piano. I dont think you need to use midi cables as there is a usb to host .
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[quote=Melodialworks Music]
I'll run my wife's laptop (which is more or less permanently connected to the N3) as the sound source for internet radio as well as playing back WAV or mp3 files to play against.
I have never encountered any deficiency in the sound and if there is in fact a noise gate, I've never noticed it, never.
Exactly. The material that you're running through the N3's audio system doesn't get soft enough to trigger the noise gate. Install a software piano on the laptop, play and hold a note, at a low volume level. Listen as the note decays. The noise gate will kick in before the note has naturally decayed. Then you'll know exactly what some of us are experiencing. If you play loud, and don't sustain notes, particularly in an exposed fashion (end of phrases, end of piece) then you'll likely not notice the issue.
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No, other Yamaha digitals don't have this problem. But ... If you're going through the trouble and expense of running a piano library (Ivory), I don't think it's worthwhile to feed those sounds back into the piano. The piano speakers aren't very good. I suggest using an external sound system. Does this happen to other yamaha dpianos? I was getting a copy of ivory 2 with an external usb sound card and was going to use the internal speakers on the piano.
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Is this ... issue, a real world issue or do you have to close the curtains, turns the lights out, crank up the volume, play a single solitary note while you squint your eyes, and listen as it fades to oblivion?
In real time, actual playing or in recordings for professional use, would anyone hear this?
Could someone provide a real world example of this and post it?
Yamaha AvantGrand N1X | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
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In real time, actual playing or in recordings for professional use, would anyone hear this?
Good grief. The answer is yes. Do you think we're making this stuff up? Just because you don't hear it, doesn't mean that the problem doesn't exist. In any case, you're not running software pianos through your N3 audio system. In fact, you really don't actually even use the audio system of the N3, but typically use headphones, right?
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In real time, actual playing or in recordings for professional use, would anyone hear this?
Good grief. The answer is yes. Do you think we're making this stuff up? Just because you don't hear it, doesn't mean that the problem doesn't exist. In any case, you're not running software pianos through your N3 audio system. In fact, you really don't actually even use the audio system of the N3, but typically use headphones, right? I am not running software pianos through my N3 though I have run all kinds of music through the N3 listening through headphones as well as using its sound system. (As a matter of fact, I now use the N3 as my home stereo since it's more convenient to access than my home stereo.) I just now played a sound source through the speaker system, going from completely off (no sound) to rather loud. I did not hear an abrupt threshold where a 'gate' opened. What I heard is the same I hear though my home stereo system, the sound starts very quietly and then gets louder. So, in real world playing, using a software piano, there is an abrupt change in sound level from nothing to where a 'gate' opens ... and this is heard by many?
Yamaha AvantGrand N1X | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
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The problem is real and easy to replicate and extremely impactive on the use of software pianos - in fact they would be completely unusable with the N3's onboard sound system.
My experience of it was with the use of a mic run through a Boss mic processor run into the N3's inputs. The Boss outputs the mic's sound at line level and of course adds whatever reverb/effects you want. If you use reverb and sing into the mic the reverb, as it dies away (not the last few milliseconds but when there is still very audible and essential reverb sound), just cuts off very abruptly making the thing totally unusable. I can see how the use of software pianos would be completely impossible. Which is a crying shame when you think about it.
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Well, I used my Shure SM58 going into my Mackie 1202 mixer and the effects were supplied by an Alesis MicroVerb4. The output of the mixer was fed into the line IN (L+R) of the N3 ... and if there was a noise gate implemented by the N3, I did not hear it.
I spoke into the mic and let the reverb fade into oblivion. If there is in fact a noise gate, I can not imagine hearing it in real world use.
As for the mic and its sound, everything sounded as I expected it to ... and I was listening for something as described here. I didn't hear it. There were no abrupt fades where a noise gate's threshold was crossed. ... and I listened through Sennheiser HD 598's with the sound cranked.
I don't see this as a real world issue, but that's just my opinion.
Yamaha AvantGrand N1X | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
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I think it depends a lot on the input signal used. If it's reasonably loud, the noise gate won't kick in much when playing normally. Playing very quietly, especially in higher registers, can lead to the noise gate ruining the sustain of every note though. But again if the input signal is loud and maybe has a bit of background noise it won't be much of an issue.
You should be able to test this on your N3 easily, just lower the input volume of your music enough and at some point the noise gate will start fighting the signal.
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