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Volume on a d.p. equivalent to that of an a.p.
#1838811 02/05/12 03:33 AM
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How do you determine the volume setting on a digital piano which equates to the volume of an acoustic piano?

I use a Yamaha CLP 430.

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Re: Volume on a d.p. equivalent to that of an a.p.
Gomtorus #1838818 02/05/12 04:17 AM
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You play a real piano then you play your DP, then you adjust your volume to what you feel is a similar level. Not being smart - it really is that basic.

Re: Volume on a d.p. equivalent to that of an a.p.
Gomtorus #1838828 02/05/12 05:33 AM
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Yes, that's the most practical way - just use your ears. If possible, try your model of piano in a shop that sells acoustic pianos as well, so you can go back and forth between them quickly.

Playing through loudspeakers, you could try a Sound Level Meter if you're really keen. Radio Shack have, or had, a cheap one, but I can't find it in their catalogue at the moment. Other electronics stores may have cheap ones. I've never used one and I have no idea how successful it would be in practice. EDIT: I suppose you could also do comparisons by just using a good quality portable audio recorder, and looking at the levels.

The room you play both your DP and the real piano in will affect the sound level.

It's trickier with headphones, but you can still use your ears. I read somewhere that we tend to want to listen louder with headphones though.

Greg.

Last edited by sullivang; 02/05/12 05:58 AM.
Re: Volume on a d.p. equivalent to that of an a.p.
ando #1838829 02/05/12 05:35 AM
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Originally Posted by ando
You play a real piano then you play your DP, then you adjust your volume to what you feel is a similar level. Not being smart - it really is that basic.


smile


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Re: Volume on a d.p. equivalent to that of an a.p.
Dave Horne #1838835 02/05/12 05:51 AM
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When I play real pianos I'm always baffled by how loud they are :-) So set it high!

Re: Volume on a d.p. equivalent to that of an a.p.
Gomtorus #1838995 02/05/12 12:38 PM
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I have a yamaha clp 440 and i Find the volume to be just a little low when on full, Just a bit more voloum would have been nice i know the internal speaks can take more.

Re: Volume on a d.p. equivalent to that of an a.p.
sullivang #1839102 02/05/12 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by sullivang
It's trickier with headphones, but you can still use your ears. I read somewhere that we tend to want to listen louder with headphones though.


Yup....gets real tricky when I go to the acoustic piano for comparison. Helps to put the headphones on the Basset Hound at this point. whome

Seriously... Thought that was one reason to use a DP. To turn it down. Otherwise....

Use German Specs.... Good N Loud


Ron
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Re: Volume on a d.p. equivalent to that of an a.p.
rnaple #1839108 02/05/12 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by rnaple

Seriously... Thought that was one reason to use a DP. To turn it down.


The OP's DP (CLP-430) appears to have a cool feature ("Intelligent Acoustic Control") - it automatically applies "loudness" processing at low volumes, to maintain a satisfying/full tone.

Quote
Otherwise....
Use German Specs.... Good N Loud


;^) That's what I do.

Greg.

Last edited by sullivang; 02/05/12 04:43 PM.
Re: Volume on a d.p. equivalent to that of an a.p.
sullivang #1839179 02/05/12 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by sullivang
...- it automatically applies "loudness" processing at low volumes, ...


Basically.... 'loudness' is just boosting the base. Makes up for lacks in amplification at low volume.


Ron
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Re: Volume on a d.p. equivalent to that of an a.p.
Gomtorus #1839187 02/05/12 07:19 PM
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And the treble. I think it's good that it can do this automatically - it is a nice touch.

Re: Volume on a d.p. equivalent to that of an a.p.
Gomtorus #1839287 02/05/12 11:57 PM
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Exactly. It used to be referred to as the "loudness" switch. Every piece of stereo equipment had this decades ago, even the ultra cheap stuff. It was nothing more than a tap on the volume pot, tied to a capacitor. Wow!

But "Loudness" switch is not sexy enough, so the marketing guys came up with "Intelligent Acoustic Control". Count me unimpressed.

Re: Volume on a d.p. equivalent to that of an a.p.
Gomtorus #1839304 02/06/12 12:39 AM
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FYI, there is a scientific reason for adjusting the tone (increasing bass and treble) for lower volumes - it is because the frequency response of our own hearing varies with the sound level: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour

Unfortunately Yamaha's system only works through the loudspeakers, presumably because there is such a huge range of headphone sensitivities and frequency responses.

Greg.

Last edited by sullivang; 02/06/12 01:08 AM.
Re: Volume on a d.p. equivalent to that of an a.p.
sullivang #1839423 02/06/12 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by sullivang
FYI, there is a scientific reason for adjusting the tone (increasing bass and treble) for lower volumes - it is because the frequency response of our own hearing varies with the sound level: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour


You are quoting subjective studies resulting in an objective statement. Many people are used to hearing mid range. Thus they are tuned to hearing it better. All they have to do is spend more time listening to everything in the sound spectrum. Then they will move that equalizer to flat response. This does not take into effect the recording in the first place. Which may have highs and lows boosted to "make people happy". There are popular "studio monitors" now that do this to make people happy. Sell products. They are no longer "studio monitors".

The studies also do not worry about the fact that many people have lousy hearing. Even when young. Just the fact of many results. The first things to go in hearing is the highs and lows. When I was 20 years old. I had a hearing test. The lady said: "We don't get many like you. You missed one by 5 and one by 9. That's all!" I didn't want to argue with her that I missed those based on noise from outside the sound closet.

All you have to do is listen to a high quality sound system with 200 watts per channel at low volume. By this I mean low enough for you to carry on a conversation with others in the room without raising your voice. You will find out real quick how much lack of bass there is in many amplification systems at low volume.


Ron
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Re: Volume on a d.p. equivalent to that of an a.p.
rnaple #1839819 02/06/12 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by rnaple

You are quoting subjective studies resulting in an objective statement.


I agree - the studies are subjective, and that's the best we have at the moment. (can you think of a way to do this kind of study in a purely objective way?) Just because it is subjective does not mean it is not a scientific study. As the Wiki page says, the studies have resulted in an international standard: ISO 226:2003 Acoustics -- Normal equal-loudness-level contours

Quote
There are popular "studio monitors" now that do this to make people happy. Sell products. They are no longer "studio monitors".


You are talking as if these studio monitors cannot have the feature disabled. Is that the case? If so, I totally agree - they are no longer monitors, and I would definitely not buy them. It would be quite bizarre if the feature could not be disabled. (btw, it can be disabled on the CLP-430)

Quote
The studies also do not worry about the fact that many people have lousy hearing.


I'm not totally convinced that this is all that relevant. The feature simply tries to make sounds of different volumes have the same perceived tonal balance. So, if a person with lousy hearing hears music at a loud level a certain way (in regards to EQ), then when they reduce the volume, they will experience the same tonal balance as before. Yes, if they have lousy hearing, the tone they hear at BOTH sound levels will not be the same as someone with normal hearing. Conceivably, these people with lousy hearing would perhaps be able to apply a static EQ to compensate for their hearing deficiencies, and the equal-loudness-contour EQ could work over the top of that. I might be wrong though - perhaps it all falls in a heap with people with hearing loss. However, even if it is not as effective, it may not be all that detremental either.

Quote
All you have to do is listen to a high quality sound system with 200 watts per channel at low volume. By this I mean low enough for you to carry on a conversation with others in the room without raising your voice. You will find out real quick how much lack of bass there is in many amplification systems at low volume.


Perhaps it is less necessary with high quality sound systems, yes. However, even with these high quality systems, in order to perceive the same tone at soft levels as loud levels, the same EQ adjustment would need to be applied. The tone at low levels probably does sound more pleasing than it does on a poor system, but the whole idea is to make the perceived sound at two difference listening levels sound as close as possible to one another.

I agree - it would not always be appropriate to do the processing. One example I can think of would be a movie soundtrack, where the producers have a good idea what sound level the audience will be listening at. They may well optimize the EQ for the sound level at any point in the movie, such that no further processing is required.
EDIT: This actually is not a good example, because even for this case, if we happened to listen to the movie at a rather low average level (lower than envisioned by the producer), it would still be valid to apply the EQ correction. I came across a system that can do the EQ adjustments on the fly, according to the level at any point in time - that kind of system may well not be appropriate for a movie. In fact, I don't like the idea of applying this type of correction in a dynamic fashion.

Greg.

Last edited by sullivang; 02/06/12 09:56 PM.
Re: Volume on a d.p. equivalent to that of an a.p.
sullivang #1839848 02/06/12 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by sullivang
Originally Posted by rnaple
You are quoting subjective studies resulting in an objective statement.
I agree - the studies are subjective, and that's the best we have at the moment. (can you think of a way to do this kind of study in a purely objective way?)
Actually, this IS an objective study. It's NOT a measurement of equipment. It's a measurement, done objectively, of people's hearing and perception.

Were you to remove the test subject's perception, there would be nothing to measure!

Re: Volume on a d.p. equivalent to that of an a.p.
MacMacMac #1839975 02/07/12 03:50 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Originally Posted by sullivang
Originally Posted by rnaple
You are quoting subjective studies resulting in an objective statement.
I agree - the studies are subjective, and that's the best we have at the moment. (can you think of a way to do this kind of study in a purely objective way?)
Actually, this IS an objective study. It's NOT a measurement of equipment. It's a measurement, done objectively, of people's hearing and perception.

Were you to remove the test subject's perception, there would be nothing to measure!


Mac, thank you for posting. I wanted to say something but didn't want to get drawn into a long discussion.

I'm still recovering from the speaker wire discussion. smile


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Re: Volume on a d.p. equivalent to that of an a.p.
Gomtorus #1841039 02/09/12 02:16 AM
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The perception deficit at low frequencies and soft volume would presumably happen with an acoustic piano, too. Should it be "corrected" in a digital piano system?
That brings up the question of what the future should be for imitation of AP features that are sort of flaws - pedal noise and hammer noise, and buzzing from slow damper contact.

--
Jack


Jack
Re: Volume on a d.p. equivalent to that of an a.p.
joflah #1841056 02/09/12 03:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Jack O'Flaherty

That brings up the question of what the future should be for imitation of AP features that are sort of flaws - pedal noise and hammer noise, and buzzing from slow damper contact.

--
Jack


I turn off all those and other simulated piano noises on my DP. Some people might like them but I don't.

Re: Volume on a d.p. equivalent to that of an a.p.
Gomtorus #1841099 02/09/12 06:25 AM
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@Jack,
My understanding is that Yamaha only modify the EQ when the overall volume of the DP is set to be low, on the volume control. The reason they do it is simply so that the sound is more satisfying when played at an overall low level. If the volume control is set to a "normal" level - a level that produces an overall sound level on par with a real piano, then no EQ adjustment is made - even when playing softly. (I don't know for sure, but this is what I suspect) A real piano doesn't have a volume control, so we can't make a direct comparison.

I don't know whether it's progressive, as the volume is lowered, or whether it's just on or off. The effect can be adjusted in intensity by the user though, or completely disabled.

Note that it is not just the bass - it is treble as well.

Greg.

Last edited by sullivang; 02/09/12 06:26 AM.
Re: Volume on a d.p. equivalent to that of an a.p.
Gomtorus #1842248 02/10/12 09:43 PM
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Some DP's - particularly the Nord (IMO) only sound right when played at AP levels - which is pretty loud.


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