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This is better souding than my rented AKG 414s!!!


http://www.box.com/s/pcgjnn7zba2vimx4ma2o

What do you think?

Do I have work to do!! I'm going to try seeker's set up.

JG

I won't necessarily agree with John that Entheo's pair of C-3's sound "better" than John's 414's but on my listening setup both sound equally acceptable. So the sound-per-dollar ratio is off the charts for Entheo's setup. Well done!

The playing styles are different enough that I can't tell how much of the ringing, choir of angels type sound that John gets is the recording setup and how much is just the way his piano sounds when he plays that material. But there's a more focused and dry, punchy sound to Entheo's recording and a more sustaining and ringing tone to John's. I like them both but must admit to being partial to that brilliant wall of sound type thing, myself.

John,

I can hear that you still have a bit of trouble with that upper-bass resonance making certain notes boom and broaden out to where they dominate the mix. Your room and mine are very similar and I know that resonant bit of bother quite well (mine's around 125-128Hz FWIW). But better than some of the other setups you've tried.

Behringer B-2 Pro Dual-Diaphragm Studio Microphone? Basically the same, Etheo?

You've got it.

The mics are about the distance from the strings you suggest. An advantage to placing the bass mic where I did is that it is further from the dampers - a little "wooshy" in sound on that piano.

The treble mic IS pointed towards the left side of the piano. The orientation WILL matter in cardioid. In that pattern the mics hear like your ears if your hands were cupped around them and angled front. (Essentially they reject sound to the rear and sides, and a graph would produce a more or less heart shaped pattern of the on axis frequency response).

I like the sound of your recording. It works for me.

Now make another with some musical material that uses the strings at the very extremes of the keyboard so we know if there are any resonant peaks in the way you've got them set up.

Me - I could live with the sound you're getting. I think it's very nice. I like the sound of these AGKs better than the Behringers.

If you're interested, the microphones I use are CM-414 from Advanced Acoustics in Canada. The capsule response is claimed to be +1/-1 db from the capsule used in the AKG C-12, a classic tube powered microphone costing multiple thou$ands. The CM-414 is priced at $379. The value proposition is interesting.

Dave Thomas, a recording engineer since the 1960's, has! these microphones built in China to his specs, then goes over them in Canada, makes some tweaks, and sells them. There are other companies doing more or less the same thing. I went with his stuff, because he answered a phone call and spent some time talking with me about what I wanted to do. I'm satisfied with the results. http://www.aamicrophones.com/fet_mics/cm_414.htm. Were I buying today, I think the gear from KEL, another Canadian company, would give Dave Thomas' mics a run for the money. The microphones they make all sound good - but different(ly) from each other. You pick one that works for your application. http://www.kelaudio.com/

Why did I go with LDCs vs. SDCs?

I admit to earlier prejudice towards something like the Earthworks or DPA mics - but then I did a gig on a decent Steinway B accompanying a singer where we were recorded with Neumann U87s, 2 in the piano in parallel as I have described, and one in ultra-cardioid pattern for her. The sound was wonderful with a lot of that same top end shimmer and a nice roundness to the sound that comes with a mic like the AKG C414. Since I make some of my living accompanying AND recording singers and instrumentalists for audition demos in my own studio (we go to Blue House and other places for post-production mastering and/or if we want a lot of very fancy editing and splicing), I wanted microphones that sounded good not only on piano - but also for singers and strings. And LDCs do just that.

I am not particularly a fan of ribbon microphones on piano. I did a session at a studio where the piano was mic'd with two very expensive ribbons from Coles pretty much next to two Neumann U87s. I listened to the mix over very high end monitors in the control room. To my ears, the Neumanns sounded better - but again - that's "TO MY EARS". In any event, I know one rather distinguished engineer that uses this stereo ribbon ($2695 from Amazon.com),microphone and swears by it: http://www.royerlabs.com/SF-12.html. It was used to record a recital on a rather splendid Yamaha S6 at Downtown Piano Works in Frederick, MD, and the recording was carried some time later on WETA. Sorry not to have any more details on it.

I'm going to try to completely separate the mics now, as in the pics: one at the treb and one at the bass. Maybe that bass mic shold be angled differently, perhaps off axis, to kill the boom I'm hearing (and you're hearing).

JG

Re the bass resonance peak - try raising the lid all the way. I suspect the microphone is "hearing" what your ears would hear were they listening the same placement.

You can also fiddle with moving the mics up and down from the strings.

I know there's science to this recording thing, but there's at least an equal part art.

Welcome to the art part : )
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Also - one of the things we did in mastering was to clear out a very small amount of bass muddiness - imperceptible to my ears until it was gone - with equalization using a multiband graphic equalizer plug in.
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You will get a very different sound by placing the bass mic in parallel with your treble mic facing the side of the piano. You can try it in both omni and cardioid. Just listen and decide what you like.
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There may also be a bass roll off switch on the C414. You might experiment with rolling off bass below 60hz. That might just do the trick for you.

Hey Seeker, thanks for all the advice... very, very useful!

Since I actually live in the Great White North (which is anything but "white" this winter) I will check out the Canadian mics you mention. So you think they're more or less as good as the German 414s I'm renting? (Not to ask you to go out on a limb or anything!!)

And--OK sorry not to get this part-- but what do "LDC" and "SDC" stand for???

LDC = Large Condenser Microphone (usually "side address")
The sound goes -> into the mic | (The mic is pointing straight up)
SDC = Small Diaphragm Condenser (usually "end address")
The sound goes -> into the mic - (The mic is pointing towards the sound source)
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Is the CM-414 the equal of a C-414 at 1/3 the price?

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Of course not.
Is it equivalent?
Maybe. If you check Gearslutz.com, a community of folks as passionate about recording and recording equipment as we Piano World people are about pianos, and search around, you'll find that a fair number of people like them BETTER. It depends on the application and your tastes.

But then there's where the 95/5 rule comes into play.
Given identical signal chains AFTER the microphone and equivalent placement, you might find it hard to distinguish between the microphones on some material. On others, it would be easier, but it could be very surprising to see which you preferred. That's what I like about the sound demos on the KEL website. Similar materials recorded with identical signal chains but different microphones in the KEL lineup. All the clips are, of course, acceptable. There are subtle differences in the sound, and it becomes a matter of taste (the ART of recording thing, again) as to which you, or your client or audience, likes best in a particular application.

For under $400 you get, at least to my ears, 95% of the way with the CM-414, to where you get for 3x to 6x the cost of AKG C414 or Neumann U87 or etc.

There's also the matter of what comes next in the signal chain. In our case, i.e., yours and mine (M-Audio and ART USB respectively) , we've got relatively inexpensive pre-amp/analog to digital conversion hardware. For a REALLY good preamp, $1000 per channel, say $2500, gets you one of the good ones, and then there is the issue of "taste" as it applies there. What kind of music are you doing? What is the sound you desire?

And so forth.

To my ears, what I get with my CM-414s and my ART-USB preamp is as good as anything I ever got in a recording studio - back in the day - when people used things like Studers or Revox tape recorders, and some sort of AKG or Neumann microphones. It sounds like MUSIC. So today, we can get recordings with a smallish investment - say $1500 and $2000 for a pair of decent microphones, stands, cables, a preamp/analog to digital converter, a laptop with recording/editing software, some lower end self-powered monitors, a pair of audiophile headphones - and get results that rival what was done in high end studios years ago. Throw in a prosumer flash recorder like the Tascam DR-100 for $300 or 5x as much for a truly pro unit, and a shopping bag, and you can record remotely as well.

I think Dave Thomas has a reasonable return policy if you don't like the mics. When/if you call him, ask him about it, and feel free to tell him I'm happy with the CM-414s I bought from him.

Given the choice between some slight coloration and unwanted ambient noise (computer, refrigerator, ventilation), I'd gladly take the former. What you're advocating for doesn't really matter in the end, especially when you go to listen to the result on consumer-grade audio equipment.

For what it's worth, though, (good) ribbon mics are more natural sounding than condensers.

i like your sound john; there's a nice warmth, richness to it. i'm not satisfied with my sound yet, but i have to be careful about too high of expectations with $50 mics

i'm putting one behringer under the hood (on half stick) in omni mode straight down the barrel of the bass strings from the back of the piano. that mic is horizontal to the strings.

on the treble, i'm following paul cantrell's advice as follows:



http://innig.net/music/recordings/method/mics.html

that really helps cut down on the damper noise and proximity effect. that mic is in cardioid mode. paul suggests an opening even smaller than half-stick (which i have on my C7; a 2" mini stick) but i can't seem to get close to the resonance in the low end that i want if the bass mic isn't under the lid, and that's not a big enough opening.

here's a recording of my piano by the composer i bought it from:

http://www.box.com/s/0lia1ms5c3ri0l735409

he's using custom built DBA 747 mics. today's equivalent would be 300 series from Mojave Audio @ $1300 each. would love to, but it IS a hobby after all.

so many variables, so little time...

What gives??? That's a FANTASTIC sound... and you had me wondering where that Beethoven was headed. But WOW... fabulous! And these are "cheap" mics? Hmmmm....

Hmmmmmm.....

Stop putting up these benchmarks I can't reach!!!

JG

One of my favorite mics for my grand are handmade to order by Aman Sahiaman. http://uvfmusic.com/ You can contact him there.

They are called "Little Blondies", and outperform mics costing 3 times as much. The model I have is slightly larger than the originals. Excellent hand-made to order mics, without the high price tag.


Here are a few recordings using both on my M&H 7ft Grand.

Aman mics http://www.box.com/s/g5p4qyjovdf2vr0fu765


Worth looking into are the Avenson STO-2 omni mics.

Avensons http://www.box.com/shared/8nh2hfye4o



Also, the new Tascam IM2 stereo mic for the Iphone/Ipad is not bad for what it is. ....better than the built-ins, that's for sure.

I did a quick video recording a few weeks ago of these 2 pieces played on the LX using the IM2 with my Iphone 4.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjI5...IT6YdrzDacw&index=1&feature=plcp


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nh8WO0ssOk

john, that last link IS a fantastic sound, but not by me, by the guy i bought the piano from, and he's using really good mics. he also claimed to have a technique of capturing the sound off the lid, which adds to the richness.

just so you feel better, that's the benchmark i'm trying to reach, but not sure i'm going to get there with my behringers.

There's some stunning improvisatory talent happening here, which makes it kinda hard to concentrate on the sound! Like the Avenson mic short improv is what I'd call a mini-masterpiece, "mini" only because it's so short. Babemagnet material....

I digress... the MH sounds fab; but you kinda suckered me with the Avenson recording.

OK... I get the picture... there are just too many good mics out there to choose from..

Or could it just be expert placement and post production/equipment and a damn good ear???

Edit... just read at the bottom that you tuned to Bremmer's no. 3.... Verituner or TL or other....?

JG

Which piano player system is that? And BTW that Tascam? mic for the Iphone, while missing the high and low completely is nonetheless incredibly accurate in the narrow end of the middle range. The piano (MH) sounds absolutely fantastic... Bremmer 3 again, I'm assuming.

Something about the M&H... I could fall for that instrument...

JG

OK Here's something latenightish: Me sightreading through a relatively (emphasis needed) easy Shosty Prelude... One AKG is right over the bass strings, maybe 8 inches up, about a foot and a half from the end of the Hailun 218 (7ft2in).

The treb mic is over the high treb dampers, 8inches off, pointed sideways along the dampers towards the long end of the piano.

Both mics at cardioid setting.

I find the treb way too clinical. But that may be a matter of taste.

The bass mic works, though: somehow that position cleans up the boom factor in the high bass..... I think

Apologies to Shostakovich, and to unison perfectionists (like me) who will hear that one or two notes are slightly out!



http://www.box.com/s/464m6v0zoydgtof8lpe8


JG

Here is my 'late night' improvisation, recorded as follows Improvisation

Two Rode M3 mics above the mid-tenor. Capsules aimed in opposite directions.

Placed above the piano pointed down there is a Sterling Audio ST-66.

Processed in Audacity (reverb and compression and a tiny bit of boost to the bass).

As far as the thread topic, my main discovery has been that the cardioid mics I have (the above plus Rode NT1-a's) have surprisingly small sweet spots. If I buy more mics, I think I'll probably try wide cardioid or omnidirectional ones.

charles, i'd recommend mics that are switchable, so you have lots of options. my $50 behringer c-3s have 3 positions: cardioid, figure 8 and omni.



sounds good to me!

Let me add that the recordings I made with the DPA have not been processed at all. Left mic straight into left channel, right mic straight into right channel.

I really like the sound of the recording and of the piano.
It sounds like it's panned slighly left of center, might have been a level thing with the mics.

The treble sounds great to me.

You might consider two things with the treble mic:
1) point it at the short side of the piano
2) keep it as is, but use it omni vs cardoid.

Good luck.
You're 99% of the way "there" to my ears at any rate.