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Re: Which headphones do you use/recommend? [Re: Dave Horne] #1834079
01/29/12 08:22 AM
01/29/12 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Horne
How I listened to my pianos for almost 20 years with headphones that now sounded thin and tinny, I'll never be able to resolve.


I think this question was very clearly resolved by a recent message in this very thread. A VERY recent one :-)

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Re: Which headphones do you use/recommend? [Re: dewster] #1834083
01/29/12 08:46 AM
01/29/12 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by dewster

I wasn't talking about lossy vs. non-lossy compression. Rather that those who do still purchase CDs very often (usually?) don't listen to them as they are being decoded in real-time, which takes CD read errors and transport jitter completely out of the picture.


And doubtless convince themselves that this makes an audible difference!

This box is being heavily marketed in the UK
http://www.brennan.co.uk/

You have to dig quite deeply to get to the information that the standard setting is to degrade the music to MP3. And a lot of users will probably accept the 128k setting (to be fair, 192k 320k and uncompressed wav are also available). Slightly odd that it doesn't offer one of the lossless compression systems.

Re: Which headphones do you use/recommend? [Re: Exalted Wombat] #1834298
01/29/12 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Exalted Wombat
Originally Posted by Dave Horne
How I listened to my pianos for almost 20 years with headphones that now sounded thin and tinny, I'll never be able to resolve.


I think this question was very clearly resolved by a recent message in this very thread. A VERY recent one :-)


Yeah, great. You've both hit the nail on the head. Don't really know why anyone is making recommendations here. All we need to do is follow Dave's advice - get yourself a really sh*tty pair of headphones - no need to spend more than a tenner - and just live with them for a few days. You'll get used to them, no matter how bad they are. Same with Hi-Fi. There's no good, better or best. It's all in our imagination.


Roland RD-1000 | Yamaha CLP 645 | Broadwood Barless 7' 6"
Re: Which headphones do you use/recommend? [Re: real2104] #1834336
01/29/12 05:00 PM
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EssBrace, thanks for quoting one sentence of what I wrote and leaving out the entire story.

I noticed you also left out the part where I stated my views that the so called burning in process of headphones exists between our ears.

The headphones in question from 20 years ago are the Sony MDR V600. I used them for many years before using them exclusively for the GranTouch. You get used to a 'sound' even if you're unaware that the sound is deficient.

I wouldn't characterize those Sony MDRV600 as you did though the AKG and Sennheiser I now use make the lower range of the piano more to my liking.

Anyone up for a double blind test? smile






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Re: Which headphones do you use/recommend? [Re: Dave Horne] #1834342
01/29/12 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Horne
I noticed you also left out the part where I stated my views that the so called burning in process of headphones exists between our ears.

This reminds me of the instructions that seem to come with every electric razor that says to give it a few weeks for your skin to adapt to the new shaving method to see the best results. I don't see skin "adapting." I'm quite sure they mean, give it a few weeks so that you gradually manage to acquire the technique for how to use the razor correctly.

But back to speakers, there is some reason to believe that the speaker material does "work in" a bit after some period of initial stress... and to counter the psychological adjustment argument, I'll mention that I've been told that the burn-in can simply be to play them for x hours without even listening to them, just let it run while you're out at work or whatever, and that they will sound better after given that workout. I've never done it, so I can't offer any personal experience here, however.

Re: Which headphones do you use/recommend? [Re: anotherscott] #1834353
01/29/12 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by anotherscott
But back to speakers, there is some reason to believe that the speaker material does "work in" a bit after some period of initial stress... and to counter the psychological adjustment argument, I'll mention that I've been told that the burn-in can simply be to play them for x hours without even listening to them, just let it run while you're out at work or whatever, and that they will sound better after given that workout. I've never done it, so I can't offer any personal experience here, however.


This is exactly how it is done - you leave them on moderate volume and put a CD on repeat and leave them playing, preferably for a few days. This is normal practice with speakers and headphones. All Hi-Fi people understand, and have experienced, the benefits - but then we're all deluded, mad or plain wrong. Well, we are according to all the experts around here WHO HAVE NO EXPERIENCE OF HI-FI WHATSOEVER (but they still feel qualified to comment).


Roland RD-1000 | Yamaha CLP 645 | Broadwood Barless 7' 6"
Re: Which headphones do you use/recommend? [Re: real2104] #1834355
01/29/12 05:28 PM
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EssBrace, since you're returned and graced us with your presence, I'll quote what you wrote earlier in this thread.

So says another completely ignorant individual who's just much too willing to share his opinion - which is based on absolutely no experience whatsoever of course. The conceit and arrogance of you people just beggars belief.

Why don't you just troll around on loads of forums spouting uninformed rubbish about topics of which you actually have no knowledge. I mean, don't stop here. Spread some joy onto a bike forum, or sign up to a mountaineering forum, Hi-Fi, cars, cameras and just feel free to slag products or ideas off - there's no need to actually know anything about the topic, go for it. Gosh, there's almost no limit to the number of people you can p*ss off with your TOTAL BLEEDING IGNORANCE.


I thought that rather harsh ... and your comment came after I wrote about MonsterCable. (A very good friend of mine who holds a degree in Electrical Engineering confirmed my belief that it's a waste of money ... and went on in detail about long cable runs and speaker gauge.)

When it comes to golden ears, those gods who walk among us, how can we tell which ones are the true golden ears and which ones are the well meaning imposters?

Wouldn't double blind testing be a procedure that golden ears would welcome? Do we take your claim (and I'm assuming from reading between the lines) that you believe there is a difference between MonsterCable and ordinary lamp cord on faith or do we test those claims using a double blind test?

smile







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Re: Which headphones do you use/recommend? [Re: real2104] #1834356
01/29/12 05:31 PM
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Quote
You'll get used to them, no matter how bad they are. Same with Hi-Fi. There's no good, better or best. It's all in our imagination.


Of course there *is* good and bad. Suppose you have got completely used to the unbalanced sound of your crappy headphone.

Then sound that you listen to WITHOUT your crappy headphone will sound crappy. So , I mean every life performance (real instrument or not), but also TV set, laptop speaker, hifi set, you name it.

And also, your crappy headphone may damage your ears in the process.

Last edited by wouter79; 01/29/12 05:53 PM.

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Re: Which headphones do you use/recommend? [Re: Dave Horne] #1834360
01/29/12 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Wouldn't double blind testing be a procedure that golden ears would welcome? Do we take your claim (and I'm assuming from reading between the lines) that you believe there is a difference between MonsterCable and ordinary lamp cord on faith or do we test those claims using a double blind test?


Ha ha. Monster cable!! That's a funny one. Monster cable is a joke - they don't make Hi-Fi interconnects, it's just tarted-up rubbish.

This is entry level Hi-Fi cabling (and I mean rock-bottom entry level):

http://www.chord.co.uk/

I don't know what the debate about double blind tests is achieving. I know what I've heard and whether it's blind, double blind or whatever it makes no difference to me. No test will ever be set up with you and me as participants - it's a non-issue here and now for the purposes of this thread. You come on here WITH NO EXPERIENCE and quite clearly NO KNOWLEDGE and you make your glib smart-arse comments about this and many many other topics - you've always done it. You helpfully refer new enquirers to Google when YOU perceive they have asked a basic question so don't try lecturing me about being harsh on this forum.

I do think I have a very good ear but you don't have to buy that line at all. Just wait until you've auditioned Hi-Fi gear and you have experience of good stuff and not so good stuff before expressing your opinion as fact, which is what you're doing. I might forgive it if there was even the slightest trace of charm or humour about your comments, but both those qualities are conspicuously lacking unfortunately.


Roland RD-1000 | Yamaha CLP 645 | Broadwood Barless 7' 6"
Re: Which headphones do you use/recommend? [Re: EssBrace] #1834363
01/29/12 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
This is exactly how it is done - you leave them on moderate volume and put a CD on repeat and leave them playing, preferably for a few days. This is normal practice with speakers and headphones. All Hi-Fi people understand, and have experienced, the benefits - but then we're all deluded, mad or plain wrong. Well, we are according to all the experts around here WHO HAVE NO EXPERIENCE OF HI-FI WHATSOEVER (but they still feel qualified to comment).


I'm very suspicious of anyone who classes himself as a "Hi-fi person" :-) It seems to be a different world from "music" or "professional audio", built largely on high-priced snake-oil and delusion.

Re: Which headphones do you use/recommend? [Re: Exalted Wombat] #1834366
01/29/12 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Exalted Wombat
I'm very suspicious of anyone who classes himself as a "Hi-fi person" :-) It seems to be a different world from "music" or "professional audio", built largely on high-priced snake-oil and delusion.


It's just a world where people are trying to get closer to the music or a performance. Is that so bad? And does it warrant your comment? So anyway, enlighten us with YOUR experience of Hi-Fi. Sorry, silly question. No need to reply - you clearly have no experience.


Roland RD-1000 | Yamaha CLP 645 | Broadwood Barless 7' 6"
Re: Which headphones do you use/recommend? [Re: EssBrace] #1834369
01/29/12 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace


This is entry level Hi-Fi cabling (and I mean rock-bottom entry level):

http://www.chord.co.uk/


http://www.chord.co.uk/products.php?pg=229

"Responding to demand from computer audiophiles, we have produced our first USB cable."

I suppose you can't blame them, if people are really clamouring to throw money their way :-) But aren't there laws against this sort of thing?

Re: Which headphones do you use/recommend? [Re: EssBrace] #1834372
01/29/12 05:55 PM
01/29/12 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by anotherscott
But back to speakers, there is some reason to believe that the speaker material does "work in" a bit after some period of initial stress... and to counter the psychological adjustment argument, I'll mention that I've been told that the burn-in can simply be to play them for x hours without even listening to them, just let it run while you're out at work or whatever, and that they will sound better after given that workout. I've never done it, so I can't offer any personal experience here, however.


This is exactly how it is done - you leave them on moderate volume and put a CD on repeat and leave them playing, preferably for a few days. This is normal practice with speakers and headphones. All Hi-Fi people understand, and have experienced, the benefits - but then we're all deluded, mad or plain wrong. Well, we are according to all the experts around here WHO HAVE NO EXPERIENCE OF HI-FI WHATSOEVER (but they still feel qualified to comment).


Have there been any tests before and after to document this ... or is this anecdotal? Wouldn't a frequency response test of headphones prove this one way or the other?

You see, I don't trust my aural memory ... and I don't trust yours either.

I grew up reading reviews from Hirsch-Houck Laboratories in Stereo Review back when I was a teenager. They taught me how to read test reports. (Julian Hirsch also was an Electrical Engineer.)


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Re: Which headphones do you use/recommend? [Re: Dave Horne] #1834380
01/29/12 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Wouldn't a frequency response test of headphones prove this one way or the other?

That would assume that every audible characteristic of headphones can be reduced to a plot of frequency response. How about distortion? Transient response?

Re: Which headphones do you use/recommend? [Re: anotherscott] #1834385
01/29/12 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Wouldn't a frequency response test of headphones prove this one way or the other?

That would assume that every audible characteristic of headphones can be reduced to a plot of frequency response. How about distortion? Transient response?


I'm suggesting a before and after test ... of as many properties that can be measured.

If you're claiming that certain audible properties of sound cannot be measured, I can't respond to that.


website | mp3 files | Yamaha AvantGrand N3 | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
Re: Which headphones do you use/recommend? [Re: real2104] #1834386
01/29/12 06:15 PM
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No, mine's bigger.


Current Life+Music Philosophy: Less Thinking, More Foot Tapping

Ars Longa, Vita Brevis
Re: Which headphones do you use/recommend? [Re: EssBrace] #1834393
01/29/12 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by Exalted Wombat
I'm very suspicious of anyone who classes himself as a "Hi-fi person" :-) It seems to be a different world from "music" or "professional audio", built largely on high-priced snake-oil and delusion.


It's just a world where people are trying to get closer to the music or a performance. Is that so bad? And does it warrant your comment? So anyway, enlighten us with YOUR experience of Hi-Fi. Sorry, silly question. No need to reply - you clearly have no experience.


Too much experience! And I was a victim, for a time.

It happens in pro audio too. Magic cables have never really caught on. But we worship various brands of vintage microphone, and seem prepared to spend enormous amounts of money on esoteric mic. pre-amplifiers and compressers. Some can't accept that a digital link basically either works or it doesn't, and try to complicate that area too.

Re: Which headphones do you use/recommend? [Re: Brent H] #1834394
01/29/12 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Brent H
No, mine's bigger.


Only because you pull it so much :-)

Re: Which headphones do you use/recommend? [Re: real2104] #1834398
01/29/12 06:35 PM
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I remember the following .... from Bob Carver - WIki

Amplifier modeling

Carver caused a stir in the industry in the mid-1980s when he challenged two high-end audio magazines to give him any audio amplifier at any price, and he’d duplicate its sound in one of his lower cost (and usually much more powerful) designs. Two magazines took him up on the challenge.

First, The Audio Critic chose a Mark Levinson ML-2 which Bob acoustically copied (transfer function duplication) and sold as his M1.5t amplifier (the “t” stood for transfer function modified).

In 1985, Stereophile magazine challenged Bob to copy a Conrad-Johnson Premier Five (the make and model was not named in the challenge but revealed later) amplifier at their offices in New Mexico within 48 hours. The Conrad Johnson amplifier was one of the most highly regarded amplifiers of its day, costing in excess of $12,000.

Of note that in both cases, the challenging amplifier could only be treated as a “black box” and could not even have its lid removed. Nevertheless, Carver, using null difference testing, successfully copied the sound of the target amplifier and won the challenge. The Stereophile employees failed to pass a single blind test with their own equipment, and in their own listening room. He marketed “t” versions of his amplifiers incorporating the sound of the Mark Levinson and Conrad Johnson designs which caused him some criticism by those who failed to understand the true nature of the challenge — that it was possible to duplicate an audio amplifier's sound in two completely dissimilar designs. In light of this criticism, Bob Carver went on to design the Silver Seven, the most expensive and esoteric conventional amplifier up to that time and duplicated its sound in his M 4.0t and later models which sold for some 1/40th the price (around $600–$1500).

This also started Carver's departure from the M-series amplifier to the more robust and current-pushing TFM series amplifiers. The TFM amplifiers were designed specifically to drive the demanding load of the Amazing ribbon loudspeakers. The apex of Carver's amplifier line was the Lightstar, which is now a collectors' item. Only approximately 100 of the amplifiers were made. The original Lightstar amplifier, called the Lightstar Reference, featured a dual-monoblock design, with separate power cords for each channel. A later version, called the Lightstar 2.0, featured one power cord & other cost-saving measures to shave approximately $1800 off the retail price. The two are reported to be sonically identical.

Carver also later sued Stereophile magazine for its alleged bias against Carver products. (Stereophile had first filed suit against Carver for reprinting the magazine's copyrighted material without authorization.) The case was arbitrated with neither side awarded damages.


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Re: Which headphones do you use/recommend? [Re: Dave Horne] #1834400
01/29/12 06:37 PM
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I think one problem is that they could do a test showing that the paper cone, for example, does produce a measurably different reading from a given audio input on some test after it's been played for 100 hours, and people would still argue about whether that indicated any difference a person could actually hear, so then you're back to square one. People who hear a difference will never be convinced that there's no difference; people who don't hear a difference will never be convinced that any technical deviation that might occur in a test actually proves that the difference would be audible.

Last edited by anotherscott; 01/29/12 06:43 PM. Reason: whittled down to the point
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