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i went to five different dealers and saw and played more makes of pianos than i can recall, but here are some:

petrof (52" and a 6'4" grand)
mason and hamlin (one vertical and several grands)
yamaha (u-3, u-5)
steinway (k-52, lots of grands of all sizes)
schulze pollman (verticals)
estonia
bosendorfer
august forster (uprights and grands)
pleyel (vertical)
sauter (vertical and a 7' grand)
grotrian-steinweg (baby, 6', and 7' grands)
kawai (grand)
bluthner (grand)

i'm sure there may have been others,too. if anyone here would be helped by my sharing impressions of any of the above, just ask.

of all the pianos, one stands out as the piano of my dreams--a 6'3" grotrian grand. david wrote in another thread that i seemed to be seeking out a certain quality of tone, and he was right. when i followed my tonal instincts it took me to this instrument--it is dark and complex and the treble is rich and bell-like, with extraordinary sustain. i've never played anything like it before. but it is dear. i keep thinking maybe the recession will help me out here, but i am concerned about over extending myself.

the petrof 131 is a really nice piano for a lot less money and i would have bought one if the dealer who does the nice prep had had one that wasn't already sold. i'm sorely tempted to buy one without playing it first, because i don't know when i'll be able to return to new york. but i don't think i have enough nerve to do that.

i think what i learned from this trip is that i should probably get a grand piano, possibly a good used one. if none of the instruments i liked in new york, then i guess i will have to wait some more.

i also learned that i need a full week in new york city, to be able to go back and play instruments that interest me on more than one day. otherwise it is just too rushed.

Grotrian grands are truly special - one of my favorite pianos to play. Their verticals are pretty special too. Hopefully this won't sound trite, but sometimes the more you know what you want, the longer it can take to find it. It is usually out there, even if it takes a while to find it.

Ryan

Pique,
You found it! My perfect piano!!!! Isn't it great? It's still my number one fave, even though I bought something else. My S-P is half the cost and very lovely in its own right. But I dream of sending it off with one of my children and getting my Grotrian someday. (Too bad they're so young!!) I know I just HAVE to have it!

Yes, the search can be frustrating. The more brands you play, the more brands you want to play, new ones and ones you've already played before. Good luck. You're doing the right thing.

I don't know if you have any travel plans to go to Virginia, but according to Pianomart.com, there's a 1992 Grotrian 6'4" there for $32K. Don't know if that's a fair price or not, but there could be negotiating room. I would've gone for a used one myself, but alas, we were hooked on getting a red piano and red Grotrians are almost nonexsistant in this country!

best of luck,
penny

[ August 29, 2001: Message edited by: Penny ]

penny,

this is a NEW grotrian for $30K. unfortunately it is in high-gloss black, my least favorite color. they had several on the floor, and this is the one that really stood out--i liked it better than the 7' models for tone and touch, so i think this is my piano, and i'll put up with the undesireable case color--that is, if i can afford it, which is still unclear.

i was hoping to persuade the dealer to go even lower, but haven't yet talked to them. i take it from your comment that their price is already very low?

evidently the recession is hitting high-end german grand pianos hard, because the 7' sauter i saw was only $27,500 and brand new. i was suspicious about this, so i called the distributor, who didn't handle this particular piano (the dealer got it direct from the manufacturer), but said *dealer cost* on a 7' sauter in pyramid mahogany is $30K.

if anyone reading this wants that sauter, it is at altenburg piano house in elizabeth, nj. ask for george. the price includes a cover, the bench, and long-distance delivery. it is a gorgeous instrument, and a magnificent piece of furniture, but i didn't fall in love with its touch and tone like i did the grotrian. and 7' is just too big, especially if i ended up having to try to sell it. if you do want it, i would definitely investigate the warranty situation. i couldn't get them to show me the warranty.

ryan wrote:
"sometimes the more you know what you want, the longer it can take to find it. It is usually out there, even if it takes a while to find it."

this does not sound trite at all, ryan, and in fact, i find your words very reassuring. sometimes i wonder if the search will ever end. thanks.

Pique,
Well you too have found the delight of playing a Grotrian grand. They certainly are special. It does seem that you've now played a great many pianos, uprights and grands and have narrowed down somewhat what you like and don't like. Sounds to me too that you may want to focus on a grand if you can afford one that you really like.

BTW I've seen the Grotrian 6'3" in Virginia. IMHO it's overpriced and not one of the best I've played. Keep us up-to-date on what you decide to do.

Rich

Pique,
Was the price $30K price at Beethoven? I get the impression their prices are pretty low and there isn't much negotiating room. The deal on the Sauter sounds pretty good.

But I can TOTALLY relate to the conundrum (sp?) in which you find yourself. We didn't want ebony either. A pyramid mahogany Sauter we tried sounded just OK next to another Sauter, which sounded terrific, but wasn't red. When you have yourself hooked on anything but an ebony finish, the pickin's are slim.

I believe the quote Beethoven gave me to ORDER (read: must make financial commitment without being able to play first) a pyramid mahogany Grotrian was $36K or $37K. But Beethoven is NOT an authorized Grotrian dealer (they must have a source somewhere) and I was reluctant to spend that kind of money on something I couldn't play first -- the conundrum!

These are good times for piano buyers. I hope you can get that Groat. They are the finest piano in the 190 size (6'3'ish). My local dealer has one that is DREAMY. I won't even ask what he wants for it because his prices are HIGH on everything we've discussed.

Meanwhile, Niles came back today for one clean-up item left over from the tuning a couple of weeks ago. He pronounced my S-P "lovely," (I report with a sigh of relief). Of course, it sounds much better when HE plays it!

penny

Pique,
The 6'3" Grotrian seems to have a better balance in the scale than the 7'5". The Beethoven price I thought was 32K for the 6'3" so if it's down to 30K that a great deal.

Rich

penny, i tried to email you but no response, so i'm not sure if i had the right address. if beethoven is not an authorized dealer, does that mean their pianos are not under warranty? their pianos say "grotrian-steinweg" on them, and i thought that the company wasn't allowed to use the steinweg name in the usa. does this mean these are gray market pianos?

rich, i'm wondering if you know what the list price is for the 6'3" grotrian?

tonight my husband asked me if i'd rather have a grotrian or a nicer house. i think he was a bit shocked when i said i'd rather have the grotrian.

Pique,
The list price for a 6'3" Grotrian in polished ebony is 54K. If your serious about getting a Grotrian I would also call Piano Mill (617-928-1237) in Boston. They are an authorized Grotrian dealer with very good prices as well. I played a 6'3" Grotrian up there that truely was a wonderful instrument. If I recall correctly they can order a mahogany or walnut finish Grotrian for around 2K more than the polished ebony.

Rich

Pique,
I'm sorry I wasn't around my computer in the afternoon/evening. I emailed you back! But, if anyone does know where Beethoven gets their Grotrians, I'd be curious, too. But I am SURE they are not an authorized dealer.
penny

Hi Penny,

How can you be sure of this?

I had talked to the distributor, Bob something. I don't have my notes in front of me, I apologize. But I met him at NAMM at the Grotrian booth and then called him about finding a local Grotrian dealer in SoCal (didn't realize it was under my nose!). Anyway, I asked him about Beethoven, because Beethoven had told me I could special order a babinga Grotrian, even though this is not one of their offered finishes. Bob told me that Beethoven is not a Grotrian dealer. I expressed some dismay, because I've been there and they had Grotrians, and according to their web site, they are a Groat dealer. He said Grotrian has asked them to stop, but to no avail.

I noticed just today that they no longer say "representing" Grotrian in their list of new pianos, yet still list several Grotrians in stock as new. They obviously have a source, and I'm guessing the source is from Germany because their prices are VERY competitive.

hope that clarifies,
penny

Pique, I've been shopping for a grand piano for about 5 months now. I had been posting questions on here quite a bit when I first started looking. Penny highly recommended the Grotrian pianos, and I checked them out. They're incredible instruments, but were out of my price range. I also played a few Petrofs, and I actually liked the PIII better than the Grotrian. Very similar bell like treble and incredibly rich bass tones. I also bought the most recent Piano Book, and he rates the Petrofs highly. My local dealer just became an authorized Petrof dealer, and ordered an Ebony Polish as one of his first (per my request). I, like yourself, was hesitant in buying one before playing it. He said that if I didn't like it, it wouldn't be a problem. That was really helpful. The piano came in 2 weeks ago, and I went to play it. I'm in love again. I am thoroughly impressed by the consistancy of these Petrofs, and I believe they are the best value for the money. He gave me a price of $21,000 on the 6'4". I believe I can still talk him down, being that another dealer gave me a price of $20,500 on a mahogany polish of the same size. It helps to have dealers compete for the sale.

Now that I've put in my 2 cents worth, I wish you luck in your search, and I hope you find the one you truely love, and that it's in your price range.

~Chris

Dealing under the table with *any* piano, much less a fine line piano, is not what I would expect from a dealership who is trying to maintain a quality reputation. I realize the consumer might think they got a better deal this way - I assure you he will find otherwise in time. Besides, a dealer who will play dirty pool with manufacturers and other dealers is not going to do differently when it comes to customers.

Just my opinion.

Larry, I'd like to explore this more. If I flew to Germany and bought a Mercedes and brought it over, would I somehow have less than a Mercedes? What if I found an importer? Pianos seem in some ways much simpler than cars. After all, you don't need extra smog equipment on your piano in California. In other words, a Grotrian sold in Germany is very similar in substance to a Grotrian sold in Boston, no?

You and other dealers have said it is VERY rare that a high-end piano would have work that would trigger the warranty, no? And really, what kind of long-term service are piano shoppers expecting. Most dealers offer one or two or maybe at best three tunings. So, if Beethoven (hypothetically speaking, I never got close enough to get the nitty-gritties of their services/prices/policies) offers these tunings and a voicing and promise to service small items (for example, felt underneath fallboard becomes loose), then other to the authorized dealers, many of whom who don't deserve our sympathy, where's the harm?

I believe in getting the best price with the best service. I traveled 300 miles from home to get it, passing two other Schulze Pollmann dealers along the way because they had pushy salesmen and bad pricing. If Beethoven offers good prices with the service, why should Pique go anywhere else?

I want to add that I'm really open to hearing your answers. I've respected your opinion in the past.

thanks,
penny

Ethics aside (don't want to get into that), I would have no hesitation about buying a "high-end" piano, such as a Grotrian from a grey 'market dealer'. Ultimately, I would have my own tech do all the work on my piano anyway.

I have nothing against salesmen/women/dealers, authorized and unauthorized, and I know that is how things work--I bought my piano from a "salesman", but if I had found my "dream piano" at some other source (non-authorized), I can't say that I would have turned my back on the opportunity to buy it because no-one shook my hand when I went in the store--sorry.

this is hypothetical, of course.

$.02 worth

[ August 31, 2001: Message edited by: Mat D. ]

I think consumers owe themselves the opportunity to explore every option aand weigh out the ups/downs of the decision.

One huge downside to buying a piano this way (if beethoven is doing this) is the lack of any technical support from the US tech. office. Your tech. will have to supply the serial number when ordering any parts and if the number doesn't match with imported inventory, they may not fill the order (especially under warranty).

just my 2 cents,

Even high end pianos can have catastrophic problems. Not often, but it happens. Here in the Denver area somebody had a 6'3" Grotrian that didn't survive last winter. The soundboard cracked everwhere. It gets down to 10% relative humidity or less in the winter here, and apparently the owner didn't have any kind of humidity control. The piano was past the warranty period, but the dealership (who is authorized) went to bat and convinced Grotrian to repair the damages at their cost. Buy this piano from a non-authorized dealer and you might be on your own.

I guess if you get the piano cheap enough, it might come out as a wash if you have to pay for repairs out of pocket. Still, it's something to consider.

Ryan

chris,
thanks for the tip about the petrof III. now i just have to find a dealer that prepares them well and is trustworthy. there used to be a petrof dealer in my town, but they told me they quit carrying the line because they hated dealing with the distributor. personality clash or something, i guess.

i understand there are two choices in the petrof 6'4"--a detoa action or the full renner action? is that correct?

larry,
i, too, would like to hear the answers to penny's questions. i think this whole aspect of the piano buying process is a very worthy conversation for this forum to have--and a healthy one.

thanks so much to the rest of you for sharing your perspectives on the relative merits of buying from an authorized v. unauthorized dealer. if anyone has anything else to add to this, please do so!

i am still negotiating on the grotrian, and learning more about what would be involved in this particular purchase. there are possibly some other good options open to me as well.

i should know more by the end of the holiday weekend. everyone have a happy labor day!

If I recall correctly, Petrof stopped using the Detoa action some time ago. I believe they now assemble their own action from Renner-supplied components for the Model III and a Renner-built action on the IIIM.

Anyone please correct me if this is not the case.