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CP1 Exposed #1830148
01/23/12 11:49 AM
01/23/12 11:49 AM
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Posts: 59
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jve Offline OP
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Some photos of the inside of a Yamaha CP1:

[Linked Image]
The CP1 with the wooden end pieces removed and front panel opened. Quality of construction is top notch, as is to be expected. The front panel assembly is not hinged, but the sheet metal design includes extrusions and matching apertures that allow the panel to be left in the open position, as shown.
[Linked Image]
The metal side plates are a vital part of the mechanical construction. The end pieces made out of solid wood (not shown) are there mainly for cosmetic reasons. Scary fact: The socket screws that secure the wooden end pieces can be loosened using a "standard" Ikea hexagonal key.

[Linked Image]
Removing the side plate reveals the pitch bender mechanism and headphone socket. The chassis is some kind of high-density chip board covered with metal foil on the inside.

[Linked Image]
Side view of the keyboard mechanism. The keyboard frame is plastic, probably for weight reasons. The "hammers" are longish metal rods with a bend (or hook) at the far end. Like many DP mechanisms, the keys are tightly coupled to the hammer mechanism.

[Linked Image]
Side view with the lowest key held down and the "hammer" consequently leaning against the four-layer foam damper strip.

[Linked Image]
The "hammers" shown from behind.

[Linked Image]
The lowest key removed from the keyboard mechanism. The white keys, as shown, feature a combination of solid wood and plastics.

[Linked Image]
The pivot point for the white keys is approximately 205 millimetres from the front. The hammer mechanism features a plunger that operates a bubble contact located beneath each key. No third contact visible.



Last edited by jve; 01/23/12 02:22 PM.
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Re: CP1 Exposed [Re: jve] #1830150
01/23/12 11:56 AM
01/23/12 11:56 AM
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jve Offline OP
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Circuit boards:

[Linked Image]
The left-hand side circuit boards. As is customary for far-east designs, only the main board is fiber glass multi-layer, the rest being single-sided phenolic.

[Linked Image]
Centre circuit boards.

[Linked Image]
The right-hand side circuit boards. The bightness control for the illuminated Yamaha logo is a four-position slide switch.

[Linked Image]
Close-up of the display module.

[Linked Image]
Finally, the main board. The three big chips are probably the DSP (sample playback/SCM and FM synthesis) chips. The two top-most chips (Yamaha YA42710, YA42810) are probably custom mask ROMs containing the samples. The Winbond chips are SDRAMs, 4Mbits x 16 for each DSP chip, and two 8Mbits x 16 for what seems to be a custom microcontroller (bottom right).

The DAC is a Wolfson WM8740, regarded by some audiophiles as slightly better than the flagship DACs from AKM, Cirrus, ADI, and TI. Of course, with delicate circuits like DACs, a lot depends on implementation. The op-amps are JRC2068, NE5532, and JRC4556, curiously in DIL packages.

The bottom side of the circuit board (not shown) holds only passive components, apart from an op-amp.

That's it!

Re: CP1 Exposed [Re: jve] #1830168
01/23/12 12:29 PM
01/23/12 12:29 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,237
Wales
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voxpops Offline
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Wales
Nice idea to post the pictures, jve, but unfortunately the images are not appearing in your posts, at least on my machine. Somewhere on the site are instructions for how to upload images. They need to be hosted, and then linked with a URL, unless you can do it with the correct code.

Sorry, I can't actually remember where the instructions are posted, so you'll have to hunt around, unless someone else can remember.


"you don't need to have been a rabbit in order to become a veterinarian"

mabraman, 2015
Re: CP1 Exposed [Re: jve] #1830173
01/23/12 12:32 PM
01/23/12 12:32 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 82
Georgia, USA
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mrcultureshock Offline
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Thanks for posting these revealig pics! Do the keys have a solid piece of wood inside or 2 pieces of wood plates attached to the left and the right sides of the keys?


If you don't think too good, don't think too much (Ted Williams)
Re: CP1 Exposed [Re: jve] #1830199
01/23/12 01:12 PM
01/23/12 01:12 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,237
Wales
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voxpops Offline
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Wales
Now I've got them! Don't know what changed, but thanks for posting.

I'm curious as to why you decided to strip it down. Also, would you care to post your impressions of it as an instrument?


"you don't need to have been a rabbit in order to become a veterinarian"

mabraman, 2015
Re: CP1 Exposed [Re: jve] #1830210
01/23/12 01:24 PM
01/23/12 01:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline
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jve, thanks so much for these! I've been super curious about the Yamaha NW-STAGE action so it's great to be able to get a peek at it. From the reports I was wondering if it was a hammer action or simply weighted.

Nice to see white key play length (played end to the pivot point) measurements for various DPs. Those on the CP1 seems a bit shorter (15mm) than on the RD-700NX. If I were building a DP I think I'd aim for a full 250mm here, which would give a 200mm black key length (100mm exposed which gives a max of 200% mechanical advantage).

The keys look amazingly like the GH keys in our old P120 (seen here) but with modified hammer weights. With less weight I imagine they are significantly lighter feeling than the GH action. But I see the same hinge, same multi-stack hammer stop padding, and I think I can see the same leaf spring forcing the hammer lever into the pivot.

I added this thread to the DPs Exposed! index - thanks again!

Re: CP1 Exposed [Re: jve] #1830219
01/23/12 01:43 PM
01/23/12 01:43 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,717
Suffolk, United Kingdom
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EssBrace Offline
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I don't see any pictures! Just little blue boxes with question marks in frown


Roland RD-1000 | Yamaha CLP 645 | Broadwood Barless 7' 6"
Re: CP1 Exposed [Re: voxpops] #1830220
01/23/12 01:44 PM
01/23/12 01:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 59
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jve Offline OP
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Originally Posted by voxpops
Nice idea to post the pictures, jve, but unfortunately the images are not appearing in your posts, at least on my machine.

The pics are hosted by Fileden, which seem to be having a lot of problems lately. I'll see whether I can move the pics to some more stable host. Thanks for the feedback.

Re: CP1 Exposed [Re: jve] #1830230
01/23/12 01:56 PM
01/23/12 01:56 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,436
Vught, The Netherlands
Dave Horne Offline
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Vught, The Netherlands
Thanks for posting the pictures!

You wrote ... Scary fact: The socket screws that secure the wooden end pieces can be loosened using a "standard" Ikea hexagonal key.


Why is that a scary fact?


website | mp3 files | Yamaha AvantGrand N3 | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
Re: CP1 Exposed [Re: Dave Horne] #1830233
01/23/12 02:03 PM
01/23/12 02:03 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline
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Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Why is that a scary fact?

I think because Ikea is associated with just so-so quality assemble-it-yourself furniture.

jve: I sent you a PM.

Re: CP1 Exposed [Re: dewster] #1830248
01/23/12 02:31 PM
01/23/12 02:31 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 59
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jve Offline OP
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The pictures should be visible now, many thanks to dewster for putting me on the right track.

Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Why is that a scary fact?

I think because Ikea is associated with just so-so quality assemble-it-yourself furniture.

Indeed. Especially us engineers have a tendency to cringe at Ikea stuff. But of course, you get what you pay for.

Re: CP1 Exposed [Re: jve] #1830261
01/23/12 02:45 PM
01/23/12 02:45 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,717
Suffolk, United Kingdom
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EssBrace Offline
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Suffolk, United Kingdom
The really scary fact is that the "wood" keys are nothing of the sort - you can see that the key itself is plastic with a wooden skin on both sides that would be visible to the player.

I don't know what other conclusion to come to other than to say that the use of wood is purely for marketing purposes because in this case it is completely non-functional.

How sad. But how predictable.


Roland RD-1000 | Yamaha CLP 645 | Broadwood Barless 7' 6"
Re: CP1 Exposed [Re: jve] #1830270
01/23/12 02:58 PM
01/23/12 02:58 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 744
Denton Texas
LesCharles73 Offline
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I agree with Dewster regarding the similarities between this and older Yamaha actions. I had a YDP-113 with an action similar to this (metal rods as weights). The interesting thing is that they lift from the opposite end when compared to actions found in many newer DP's. Most of the more refined actions I've seen have the hammer's pivot point facing away from the player, so the hammer/weight is actually located just beneath the front of the key. Similar (but definitely not identical to) this Fatar action.

[Linked Image]

I guess you could call this a "folded" or "inverted" hammer action, whereas the CP1 is more "linear".

Last edited by LesCharles73; 01/23/12 03:02 PM.

Les C Deal




Re: CP1 Exposed [Re: EssBrace] #1830310
01/23/12 03:26 PM
01/23/12 03:26 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 82
Georgia, USA
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mrcultureshock Offline
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Georgia, USA
Originally Posted by EssBrace
The really scary fact is that the "wood" keys are nothing of the sort - you can see that the key itself is plastic with a wooden skin on both sides that would be visible to the player.

I don't know what other conclusion to come to other than to say that the use of wood is purely for marketing purposes because in this case it is completely non-functional.

How sad. But how predictable.


I completely agree. I can't believe Yamaha can claim to have "wooden" keys and charge extra when it's just a plastic key with wood inside.


If you don't think too good, don't think too much (Ted Williams)
Re: CP1 Exposed [Re: EssBrace] #1830366
01/23/12 04:13 PM
01/23/12 04:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 59
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jve Offline OP
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
The really scary fact is that the "wood" keys are nothing of the sort - you can see that the key itself is plastic with a wooden skin on both sides that would be visible to the player.

Not really, it's a solid piece of wood. But yes, it's not "wooden" like Kawai's RM3, for example.
What shocked me was when dewster pointed out the similarities to the old GH keyboard, especially since the NW-STAGE feels nothing like the GH. The CP1 does have rather good player-sound connection, probably the result of favourable key weighting and some clever key scanning algorithm.

Re: CP1 Exposed [Re: jve] #1830395
01/23/12 04:40 PM
01/23/12 04:40 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,403
Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Online content
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Sofia, Bulgaria
How are velocity sensors on NW-stage implemented? Are there any photo sensors on the metal hammer rods or just pressure sensitive contacts? Or maybe even worse, contact sensors under the keys? Can you throw the hammer without depressing the key all the way down?


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: CP1 Exposed [Re: EssBrace] #1830417
01/23/12 05:15 PM
01/23/12 05:15 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
The really scary fact is that the "wood" keys are nothing of the sort - you can see that the key itself is plastic with a wooden skin on both sides that would be visible to the player.

I don't know what other conclusion to come to other than to say that the use of wood is purely for marketing purposes because in this case it is completely non-functional.

I'm probably one of the last people to give Yamaha a pass on anything, but the wood here appears thick enough to impart noticeable mass to the key. Not sure how intentional that was though, they may have needed the thickness to accommodate the black key cut, and for moisture stability.

This is a non-graded action, which is intriguing. And the way the weight bar is formed it seems there is perhaps less down weight than normal, but still significant inertial mass. I'm wondering if the key dip (the distance that it takes to fully depress a white key) is shallower than normal, making it feel easier to play. Could you measure this for us jve?

[EDIT] Sorry everyone, I was wrong, the CP1 white keys seem to be constructed not of wooden side veneer on a plastic key but of a solid piece of wood sandwiched between the plastic key top strip and a plastic mechanism strip on the bottom. Link.

Last edited by dewster; 09/21/13 12:01 PM.
Re: CP1 Exposed [Re: CyberGene] #1830421
01/23/12 05:21 PM
01/23/12 05:21 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
How are velocity sensors on NW-stage implemented? Are there any photo sensors on the metal hammer rods or just pressure sensitive contacts? Or maybe even worse, contact sensors under the keys? Can you throw the hammer without depressing the key all the way down?

In the last picture you can see the flesh colored rubber switch that the hammer lever actuates on the key (right) side. So the key presses down the hammer lever, which mashes the switch contacts inside the boot against the angled PWB. Nothing optical going on that I can see. I imagine you could throw the hammer without fully depressing the key if you hit it fast enough.

Re: CP1 Exposed [Re: jve] #1830432
01/23/12 05:31 PM
01/23/12 05:31 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,403
Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Online content
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If the rubber switch is under the key, then it's not possible to trigger a note without depressing a key fully, am I right? That would be bad... As I said, I really felt in love with the NW-stage action mainly for its lightness and the playability of the piano, however I forgot to test whether you can play a note without fully depressing a key.


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: CP1 Exposed [Re: jve] #1830451
01/23/12 05:55 PM
01/23/12 05:55 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,111
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Thanks for posting the pics jve!

Is this a two-sensor or three-sensor switch, I wonder?

[Linked Image]

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

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