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I absolutely wish that a Brodmann had been available to A/B against the Hailun 218. I had been told that if I liked the 218 then I HAD to play the AS227!! Played one at Robert Lowreys in Toronto. It was very nearby a Schimmel of similar demensions: no comparison (the Schimmel was WAY better in every aspect). The Brodmann was "nice" even, perhaps, "very nice," but it didn't turn my crank, so to speak. Mainly the tone: OK but no great shakes; certainly no better than a Kawai semi-grand.

Lowrey doesn't carry Hailun, unfortunately. But I immediately charged up to Grandt's Piano House and replayed the 218, and again compared it to the Steinway B's and the Steingraeber Concert Grand that were beside it. All I can say is that it held up without any difficulty against these excellent German pianos. No Schimmels in the room, unfortunately. And no Brodmanns.

But I couldn't fail but notice that while the Hailun 218 compared VERY favourably with the Steinways that were beside it, the Brodmann AS227 (much more expensive instrument, btw) did not hold up at all well against the Schimmels!

Maybe a poorly tuned and regulated 227? Who knows?

JG

syxbit,

In the past, Hailuns were clearly less needing of any type of service issues.

Presently, Brodmann quality control has pretty much peaked so that the brands are about the same now technically both in factory preparation and out in the field regarding service issues after several months. Prepwork is also limited to finer detailing versus anything significant.

Cosmetically - Brodmann has the advantage, having made noticeable improvements in the last few years as has Hailun but the Brodmanns are more perfect now.

I have sold Brodmanns for just over 4 years and Hailuns almost 4 years.

Interesting. So Ms Cohen had mixed views of the Brodmann, which raises an interesting question that I think IS germaine to the topic:

If y'all are trying to label the best Chinese grands, why would the review be of a PE187 when, presumably, an AS187 should be far better? So let's address the question here, since I'm guessing you've played both, Norbert (or anyone else who has):

What's your opinion about the relative differences between a PE187 and the vastly more expensive AS187?

Well, the first thing you notice when playing the AS 187 is that German hands were definitely at work here: extremely precise [Renner action] with similar control like most other German piano I played.

Too new to come to a true conclusion.

Played on one single specimen....

Norbert

This brings some thoughts to bear. Every grand piano benefits, sometimes tremendously, from finishing work at the end of production. If a company has the staff, the skill, the time, and the inclination, they can improve the performance of a given piano dramatically.

If a piano is properly engineered and production is well controlled, which several Chinese products are, than prep. can truly be the separation point.

I do not know what Brodmann does, but the New Cunningham goes through a rigorous prep. As a result, it has recently been chosen by The Director of Musical Studies at The Curtis Institute, Jonathan Coopersmith, as his personal piano here in Philadelphia. (His family also owns a Steinway and a Bosendorfer)

By the way, earlier in this thread someone referred to the Cunningham as a "house brand". I understand that comment because that is how the project was born. However, we have also gained recognition by having several well established industry professionals request to become dealers. This is happening naturally and organically, which is just the way I like it.

Anyway, I do not think "house brand" is an accurate description anymore.

My 2 cents,

If indeed the 'Cunnigham Piano' is no longer a 'house brand' it could be interesting for prospecting US customers - those not living near Philadelphia - to know from which dealers in what area they can buy a Cunningham.

schwammerl.

I do appreciate the very helpful information you provided.



If he really wants to know "the best" single factory then it's a question with so many answers as to stretch the meaning of "valid question". There's no objective way to rank pianos coming from various factories. So trying to find "the best" admits any number of answers, none of which can be the most "valid".

You'll get quotes from Larry Fine's rankings. That's a valid answer.

You'll get people naming the only Chinese piano they've ever purchased as "the best".

You'll get dealers pitching their particular Chinese brands as "the best".

At any rate, I see the thread has now (predictably) descended into a free-for-all among the last category of answers. I was unwise to chip in with my meagre perspective and am happy to leave it to our customary litany of "Mine's Bigger" claims by the usual suspects. Lesson learned.

Here in the UK a very well respected dealer Chris Venables has an 'in house' brand the Venables and Son, they are made to their own spec by I suspect Hailun (may be wrong) They do a range of Verticals and Grands look and sound very good (photos and Video):

As with all Chinese pianos it is all in the prep!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2HyoNyFab8&context=C33b3594ADOEgsToPDskJ9ahdNJjU4a4uleJzW6mAx

http://www.chrisvenables.co.uk/venables-and-son-grand-pianos.htm

I have to respect those who comment on pianos they sell and not the ones they don't.

How can anyone possibly answer a question about what is the "best" anything without first defining what "best" means for purposes of the question?

If the definition (if any) includes any subjective elements, like tone, touch, etc., how can there ever be any verifiable, objective, or conclusive response to the question in any event?

It seems to me that debate over who makes the best anything at all is utterly frivolous without first deciding what "best" means. It may well be frivolous after "best" has been defined as well, because the answer will often depend upon individual taste or anecdotal experience. To the extent that "best" is defined to include only objectively verifiable factors (whatever they would be), something it is hard to imagine in the piano world, the debate may well involve information that proves to be both boring and unhelpful in the customer's election of a piano, because such selection inevitably and appropriately depends upon how the individual piano sounds and feels to the prospective purchaser (and what it costs). To the extent that "best" depends upon factors that are subjective, at least to some extent, the debate is simply about matters of taste, and will require the popcorn an earlier poster indicated he or she was preparing.

At least that is what I think.

Rank Piano Amateur, I think that is a good way to conclude this debate.

Hint hint.

I didn't want to be too specific - tone, touch etc can all depend on how well the piano is prepped, however build quality is a different thing. Rightly or wrongly I put them all under the same umbrella. I will try to be more specific the next time.

Rank Piano Amateur's comment "How can anyone possibly answer a question about what is the "best" anything without first defining what "best" means for purposes of the question?"

Many members have answered the question and they have been helpful.

THANK YOU to all.

It's true that this question will prompt a variety of answers from a variety of sources for a variety of reasons. What question here doesn't except for inquires about the age of a used piano? One almost always has to sift through what is written in the way of opinion and ignore a good part of it. However, the question (as opposed to answers) is not as difficult as you imagine.

Experienced retailers spend a lifetime around pianos. While their primary interest may be in selling what they have. and a good many of them focus on profiling their customer and trying to match their pianos praise with what they feel lies at the top of his budget reach, they do know what to look for in assessing the build quality of pianos, and for the most part their ears and fingers are fine-tuned enough to let them know if that build quality has paid off in musical potential. Sometimes that doesn't happen, but when it does they're aware of it.

There are telltale signs in construction that experienced retailers and techs will readily notice about quality of build. They don't have to examine every square inch of the piano to get a sense of the level of attention the maker has given to the product's build even though they need confirmation in how the piano plays and sounds to know if the results confirm the intent.

One retailer here posted:



That comment is worded in an intentionally vague way, but it scratches the surface at least.



What actually prompted me to respond to your post was your emphasis on the "trusted dealer" being the most important element of a piano choice. Even though it played a large role in your choice, for a variety of reasons which don't fit this thread topic, I disagree with placing such a high priority on "the trusted dealer". In my experience some retailers whose presentation does not inspire trust, and in fact might make a knowledgeable customer quite angry, sell some very fine pianos, while some retailers who make you want to adopt them as your uncle present some real losers with great humanity. I think the personal dynamic between customer and retailer is a dangerous way to choose a piano.

On a personal note, I liked the choice you made whatever motivated you to make it. I think you maximized your budget and should be quite pleased with the results.

At least I was specific enough to mention the brand name!

Thank you for your comments about how professionals seeing many pianos on a continual basis are able to evaluate and choose accordingly.

I evaluate first, then sell based on what I have found, as most probably do. But there have also been some pleasant surprises along the way.

In terms of "built quality" few would have problems saying that the Germans generally top the list.

In terms of "consistency", the Japanese have been outstanding.

But neither of these factors would make me choose a piano just by itself.

Many here reported having played dozens of "first class" grands that left them cold.

In reverse, an unexpected find may steal your heart.

This is really what's going on these days and the upcoming NAMM show will surely once again present many candidates from either group.

As a dealer I encourage people to do their comparative shopping within same or at least very similar price class.

If you are looking at $ 15,000 grands, look at all others at same price point. The moment you jump to $ 30,000, you would have to start all ove again. My whole writing here has centered around this basic, very important point.

If someone finds a piano at $15,000, a piano he likes as much or even better than another one at $ 30,000, it could be an opportunity worth exploring.

Or a piano for $ 30,000 preferable to one twice the price.

As this is what is increasingly happening in today's market, it presents threats to some but opportunities to others.

To me, this is what the ongoing discussion and sometimes fighting about certain pianos and makes here is all about.

Simply speaking, it's all about [defending..] market share and money.

Norbert

We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are.

I guess we need Dan’s corollary here once again:

“The length of the post is diametrically opposed to the amount of useful information contained therein.”

Yes, useful dialogue usually begins to dry up after about page three.

Well I guess we will have to disagree;

This thread should have been maybe, at best, 3 postings.

Actually it could have been one…..

But no, instead we have 4 pages of yada yada about a lot of nothing…..

Question;

Who makes the best pianos in China?

Answer;

Some Chinese guy I would suspect.

Question;
Who makes the best pianos in China?

Answer ;( little more helpful here)

The best thing to do is for you as the purchaser, to go and play a variety of instruments manufactured in that region of the world. Decide on which one you like to play the best (action/touch/responsiveness) and which one you would like to listen to the best (tone/timbre/projection.)

That, in your opinion as the purchaser, is the best piano coming from China. What others think of your choice is a moot point unless you live your life by popularity polls…..

Dan.

I disagree with you. Because in this case I agree with you! HA!

Silverwood Pianos you have posted your fair share of Yada Yada on this forum too!

Sorry for posing the question