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Turandot:

The distance doesn't really matter as i travel widely with my work so am ofter in the area of Chris Venables - there is one dealer nearer but I would be very reluctant to buy from them. I'll have to bite the bullet and have a visit.

I think it's important to distinguish between the question asked and what one thinks is the reason the question was asked. If the OP feels that he needs to restate the question to get the information he would like, he can certainly re-direct his question.

I can certainly understand why retailers must be prudent in giving a blunt response to the question asked. If a retailer stocks a certain Chinese brand or brands, he will not want to discuss candidly its shortcomings. Nor will he want to discuss candidly the shortcomings of rival Chinese brands as opposed to his own. Similarly, a retailer who does not represent Chiinese brands will not at thi point in time wish to point to Chinese brands as junk. That worked in this forum five years ago, but any dealer who followed that tack at this point would be subjected to an avalance of justified criticism. So yes, the question as posed is a delicate one. However, that does not mean that the question is inappropriate.

I am quite certain that the OP was not asking for.......

1.)a general tribute to Chinese piano brands

2.)a general opinion of durable goods made in China

3.)the political philosophy of members towards China

4.)a review of Fine ratings

5.)an obvious manipulation of Fine ratings to give a distorted view of Japanese piano quality.

The simple facts are that certain Chinese factories produce pianos of export quality, that others don't, and that certain Chinese export brands are better built and finished off at factory than others.

If retailers do not want to address that, they should simply avoid the question completely rather than extoll the virtues of Chinese pianos as a lump sum and suggest that these pianos as an undifferentiated class have made all other piano makers uncomfortable based on their sheer quality as opposed to their price.

The question of what you get in terms of specific instrument quality when you spend more is a question that any retailer who stocks low-priced Chinese pianos as well as higher-priced lines not made in China should be ready to address, if not here than in his showroom. If he cannot address that question and the parallel question of what you give up in spending less, then he should stock only Chinese brands. To suggest that other than a few elite painstakingly built and prepped European brands, all other pianos are equal is a gross oversimplification. People are not stupid.

To ask what one gives up specifically in terms of product quality in choosing a Hailun rather than a Brodmann, or an Estonia rather than either of the above, or an M & H rather than all three of the above, is a valid question to a retailer who stocks all four and has chosen to participate in this thread.

As with all piano purchases, it ultimately comes down to choosing a dealer you can trust and then finding a piano that you want to own, under the assumption that the trustworthy dealer will be honest about its quality.

If you can not trust the word of your dealer you shouldn't spend thousands of dollars with him. And if you can not trust a dealer of good reputation how in the world are you going to trust the opinions of a bunch of anonymous strangers on an Internet forum?

So I took the original question to be asking what particular brands are worth seeking out. Not hoping to elicit some final, authoritative word on the absolute best Chinese manufacturer, period. I think that is a too-literal reading of the question. And in any case the original poster was not asking for a referendum on the thesis that All Chinese Products Are Junk.

Surely by now we've provided some ideas as to brands worth consideration...

Tell it like it is, brother! This may be way too much truth for some dealers to choke down.

Since you live in England i would definitely contact Chris Venebales. Chris is also a Japanese piano dealer and will give you the straight goods.

I have had a number of discussions about this subject with Chris before and he is an incredibly open, knowledgable and forthright man. As you can see, here on the Forum you will get *opinions* from lot's of people who may have very limited personal experience regarding each and every model worth your considaration. Several don't even play piano or sat on any one of the pianos they're talking about: one would surely like to hear from THEM how they would rate a Ritmuller 188 against a Hailun 6'4, a 6' Perzina against a 187 Brodmann and so on.

For those who care, this is EXACTLY what I have been doing for years but the old boys network is not interested to have this published, perhaps EXACTLY because they know how good these pianos are.

As said, Chris is a different type dealer and will tell you the truth. He will also show you some good Japanese pianos - and so he should.

In fact if you end up buying a wonderful new Yamaha C1 - I'll be the first to congratualte!

You can also do a 'search' of several brands on this board and see what people have to say when having made a choice.

Unless these good folks are all liars, you will quickly see who is coming up again and again in testimoniual and may be a worthy candidate.The rest is personal perception, prepping of piano and taste.

Please let us know what your discovery will bring.

It's time for us wise guys to sit back and let shoppers do their own things.

Happy competition all shoppers!

Norbert

For the record, Fine rates Pramburger (platinum), Knabe, and Albert Weber (great Chinese names, aren't they?) a hair HIGHER than all the ones Norbert mentions except for Perzina verticals. Also for the record, Norbert sells most of the pianos he's touting. It doesn't mean he isn't telling the truth as he sees it. It does mean he has a vested interest. Most of us here do not.

Brent H.

When you became active on this forum a couple of months ago, you asked specific questions about the DongBei factory, its products, and brands that have been sourced at that factory. I remember asnwering your questions as specifically as I could. I took your questions at face value.

I would suggest that you do the same with the OP's question here. He is not asking for your interpretation of what is important based on your recent piano purchase. He is asking which Chinese factory (or factories) make the best pianos. It's a valid question.

Knabe, Pramberger Platinum & Albert Weber are Korean, not Chinese made pianos. Perzina makes excellent pianos, especially uprights if one can find dealer, same for Feurich [not even 'rated' at this time]

For someone looking in England there may be a different selection of pianos than we have.

I am 'touting' nothing here and only wish OP to find the piano of his dreams. I *was* perhaps touting things years ago when few wanted to believe me, even were full of ridicule.

It was no different when we adopted Estonia some 14 years ago and it's no different now. "Hyping things" has been an old accusation against me simply picking among those I have always seen great value and potential in.

I started my business from scratch myself and no daddy handed me over the reigns filled with Steinways and Bosendorfers. Every piano I ever picked, I did after a lot of deliberations.

So far, time seems to have proven me right or at least - "in the right direction"

Which is not to say that there wouldn't be many other fine makes and candidates out there as well. But since the market, outside real high end pianos, is getting continually smaller and certainly "tighter", more consideration will have to be made by shoppers of "what makes actually sense" out there.

Let everyone come to his/her own conclusion!

Congratulations in advance to OP whatever his final choice should be!

Norbert

Turandot,

I do not wish to neglect the homework assignment you have given me, just am having a busy Saturday.

I think it would also be very useful to point things out using photographs which I will need to take but I don't know how to post them.

Thanks,

Nick

This got me to do some detective work. It turns out neither of us was completely accurate. Though I don't know where I got the mistaken idea from, I had thought pianos labeled Young Chang or Samick were all made in Korea and other labels owned by Korean companies were made in China. Both assumptions have proven to be wrong.

As Norbert says, Knabes are not currently made in China. Some are, as he says, made in Korea (as Knabe is a Samick company). However, others are made in Indonesia.

Pramberger Platinum is also not made in China, but despite being a Samick line, it turns out to not be made in Korea either. They're made in Indonesia like some Knabes.

As for Albert Weber, it's a Young Chang line. It's possible that YC makes them in the Korean factory, in which case Norbert would be right (and I'd be wrong). It's possible they make them in their Tianjin factory, in which case Norbert would be wrong (and I'd be right). If anyone knows more about Alber Weber specifics, please enlighten us.

You are both partly right…and partly wrong. The skeletons (i.e., completed rim assemblies), frames (plates), along with cabinet parts and keys, are made in Tianjin. These are all shipped to Incheon where the pianos are assembled. The frames are fitted, the pianos are strung and actions are fitted, etc. in Incheon. Regulating and voicing is done in Incheon.

ddf

All of this intensive research may be of interest to you, but has absolutely nothing to do with the thread topic.The OP is not living a life accroding to Fine, and almost everyone who wants to know which Korean brands are made in Indoensia and which in China knows that already.

Time to get off Norbert's back. He has re-directed his efforts back to Chinese brands and away from Japanese brands and finding hidden intricacies in Fine's rough map of the market. He has supplied the OP with which factories he feels are frontrummers in quality piano production inside China and which models from those factories are espceially worth considering. Has any other industry professional here done as much?

Within the framework of the OP'squestion, Norbert has been very forthcoming. I find nothing to personally disagree with including his remarks about Perzina. Norbert has picked some winners and picked them early on. You can't take that away from him.

You can infer that Norbert recommmends them because he sells them. He can retort that he sells them because he believes in them. The difference is that you've put your compuer keyboard where your mouth is, and he's put his money where his mouth is (since his daddy didn't hand him the keys to a Steinway franchise ).

I think what the OP wants to really know is..how's it going to hold up, in say 10 yrs?
were not talking cars here where the salesman says "how old's the car?" well your due for a new one! here's our latest model! or flat screen TVs, were told they can last 15 yrs..
but everyone knows with today's technology no one's going to keep the same TV for 15 yrs!
Pianos on the other hand don't have a big turnover..
"yes sir/madam your piano's how old ? 10 yrs really? wellllll we have some new baby grands
just to your liking!! you just let us take care of that old thing..and trade it in
and well have your new piano delivered next week..and well dispose of that old tired piano for you too.."

I've been playing for 50 years. I've played everything (pretty much) on the market. Came across a Hailun 218 about 4 months ago and bought it pretty damn quick! No Brodmann, or Kawai RX, or Steinway B for that matter, or Shigeru Kawai--even--can hold a candle to this instrument. Maybe a one off. Time will tell.

Stunning instrument. Fine can't possibly have taken the 218s for a test drive. Played a Wendl 218 a month later, trying to determine if it is an exact copy. No comparison. Not remotely the same.

Sure, the Steingraeber Concert Grand in the same room as the Hailun 218 sounded better, but not obviously so, to be perfectly blunt about it.

Go figure.

JG

Nick Mauel and Norbert both sell Brodmann, Hailun (and Norbert also sells Ritmueller). As dealers who probably receive, sell and prep them by the crate, how about your opinions?
Which require more prep?
Which look like they go through better quality control?
Which company is better to deal with should you need to use the warranty.
And, most importantly, once sold, which pianos require more effort on your part as the seller?
I think all of those answers would help the OP (and anyone else looking for a top Chinese grand)

I never got to try a Ritmueller as there aren't any dealers in my area, but I did try a Pramberger, May Berlin, Hailun and a Brodmann (I tried all their ~6' models). I thought the Brodmann was far, far better (in my opinion of course) than any of the others, and so I bought it.
As a pianist, and a consumer, I obviously don't know how each company does as far as quality control, prep, warranty, tonal stability. My only experience is with the pianos I've played. Dealers who sell lots of them will have a much more valuable opinion (statistically speaking).

I seem to have hit a raw nerve, which I assure you was not my intention. You have suggested we should get back to the OP's original question. Fine. Lets, because I think the answer is in the thread.

Avoiding the contentious issue of how we are to view Norbert's commercial involvement in these products, he has, as you've said elsewhere, made clear his answer:

Certain Brodmann, Hailun, and Ritmuller grands

Warning: for those offended by mention of Larry Fine's opinion, please stop reading now--I'm not trying to upset anyone.

Larry Fine, of course, has weighed in on the same subject. Now that, through this thread, we've actually identified which are and which are not Chinese-made pianos and going only with the former, Larry Fine also has also made his answer clear (P.45 of the Piano Buyer):

Brodmann, Hailun, and Ritmuller grands

So, in the end and without any steam, the answer to the OP's question appears to be coming in in stereo. While the call must of course have some subjectivity to it, I would have to think that the OP is likely to take some comfort in the fact that 2 voices coming from vastly different positions have drawn near identical conclusions. (The fact that Norbert got more specific goes beyond the kind of designations made in the Piano Buyer but, presumably, might be of further interest to the OP.)

I have come to similar conclusions as Norbert, and mostly agree with what he has stated here. That is also why we happen to sell some of the same brands, as well as many other dealers also carrying these same brands.

However, it should be noted that in the Fine ratings which have been referenced here, Brodmann grands were in their own group above any others coming from China for a few years, until they were joined by Hailun and Ritmuller recently.

When this happened, I was surprised that Brodmann did not also advance. Although Hailun certainly has some standout models such as the 178 and larger grands, the bigger Brodmanns floor everyone that sits down at them (I stock both 7' and 7'6").

There are certain details of the Brodmann design and construction that tend to exalt them and make them comparable to far more expensive pianos.

This can be noted throughout the entire line. There is a significant degree of consistency and features among all of the models that most people consider very appealing, from small to large grands.

The 9 foot Brodmann concert grand has already made an appearance and will be again shown at NAMM, along with other models being produced in Vienna.

The Brodmann Piano Company is unique in how the pianos are produced, since the company is based in Vienna and uses very high quality components in key areas while at the same time keeping labor costs down, thereby producing a very compelling yet affordable piano.

The company leadership is comprised of several former executives of Bosendorfer. Their very high standards are thoroughly reflected in the quality of the pianos.

Opinions,opinions, opinions...

Here's another one, not without the usual dish of disagreement of course.

Please also note, the pianist herself is a Steinway owner..

http://www.pianobuyer.com/fall11/49.html

Insider tip: "best" is a very personal judgement, we all know this. Perhaps one should be entitled to some kind of opinion after having played at least 10 identical specimen each.

One, well... is really only - "one"

And "none" is - well let's not even go there...

More input from you shoppers out there needed!!

[Free popcorn supplied by Kassmann Pianos!]

Norbert

Norbert or Nick . Could either of you comment on the condition of these pianos as they arrive from the factory.
How much prep is required and some of the other questions