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A closer look of what's really going on appears to be painting a slightly different picture.

Within Consumer Grade Pianos certain brands are moving up the scale surprisingly quick - some may say "uncomfortably quick"

We're not talking advancement up the scale taking several decades - but few years.

In fact, some of the better Chinese made pianos are now in very same company of certain Japanese models which have meantime "dropped" down a notch - rather than being advanced up to next level.

This, also in only "few years", by the way...

Attached Piano Book ratings from 2010 - 2011: watch the changes in one single year:

2010: http://www.pianobuyer.com/fall10/47.html

2011: http://www.pianobuyer.com/fall11/45.html

Anybody analyzing and watching the market on an ongoing basis can't help but acknowledge how fast things are moving, perhaps "uncomfortably quick" for some...

In the end you can do all the "advancing" or "dropping" you want - it's piano buyers who will be making decisions of their own in today's highly varied market.

With plenty of new, highly attractive choices out there, one is no longer surprised to hear so much about them - some of it even surprising us dealers.

Not always the best feeling when someone's arriving with $ 20,000 to buy a new grand, but then leaves happily having spend only a fraction of that....

As I had predicted a long time ago: in very short time there will be only 2 major groups of pianos: top class, top quality and then - "everything else"

Let everyone sort out exactly *what is what* - in each class.

Norbert

This misses the point. We all know Chinese pianos are improving. "Made in Japan" once meant junk and now means quality. The Chinese appear headed in the same direction.

However, no one can deny that the Chinese are currently still in this transition.

If I were young, I'd buy a P-95 digital for the cost of a weekend out of town, and then sit it out till the Chinese completed this transition.

But I'm old. I need a piano now. I can't wait for that sweet spot wherein the quality of Chinese instruments had completed this transition but before the prices go crazy. This happened with the Japanese. By the 1970s a U-series upright had become a solid instrument but cost next to nothing. Then, over time, the yen went from 360 to the dollar to about 76. There are no bargains any more. The Chinese are following the same path.

I wish them luck and will watch as the changes unfold, but till then I'm buying quality--not rapidly improving quality.

Two references to "uncomfortably quick" here, in quotes no less, presumably is to stress th point. Who is being discomforted? Who is being quoted?

I rather doubt that piano makers assess their fortunes by seeing where they stand in the latest Fine edition. I think they would look at unit sales, order books, margins, production and marketing costs, and growth, stagnation, or decline of their brand in world markets in which they compete.

BTW, if there really is a Japanese piano which has "dropped" from a higher category into consumer class, I'd like to know what brand and line it is.

Still, I can understand any retailer of Chinese brands' exasperation with Fine's creation of the professional category. In the instances of Yamaha and Kawai artist level pianos, it seems to be more of a lifetime achievement award than a reflection of any actual changes in the pianos being produced. And why a couple of other minor brands not normally associated with use by professionals are tossed into the category is beyond my comprehension.

One of the fascinating aspects of the Chinese piano boom is the inevitable consolidation that lies ahead. There are already some casualties: the aftermath of Gibson's purchase of DongBei, the end of W&L and Steigerman, the failure of the first Brodmann CE series, and the change of factory sourcing in several stencils from one Chinese factory to another.

Who really knows what lies ahead? Who has the leverage between Parsons Music and Brodmann? How big will Yamaha's commitment to production facilities in China become? When will Hailun take matters in Europe into its own hands? What Chinese state-supported makers will lose their subsidies because in the view of the state they don't employ enough homeland Chinese to contribute meaningfully to social betterment? Like every wave that hits the shore, some debris is swept onto the beach and left behind as the wave recedes into the path of the next one.

I just checked. You appear to be right and, as best I could tell regarding Japanese pianos MADE IN JAPAN, Norbert is wrong.

Boston; Yammy C grands, U-series uprights; Kawaii verticals, RX grands, have all been promoted from top of consumer class (2010) to the professional desigation of which you speak (2011).

All the other made-in-Japan lines (viz., Kawai's GM grands and Yammy's GB grands) have stayed where they were.

None of these made-in-Japan pianos has slipped even half a Larry Fine notch.

Perhaps it's not the "dropping" but by not advancing into same class as "professional quality" - the division between higher and lower groups of pianos by same manufacturer is clear.



And that's where the real misunderstanding lies.

IMHO Japanese manufacturers have long decided - seemingly "on purpose" - to build only their lower grade pianos in Indonesia and elsewhere.

This achieves 2 objectives at same time: not only does it protect jobs at home and prevents political turmoil but it also reinforces the etablished image Japan as a quality builder.

Fact is, that mass-production of any product today is becoming less influenced "where" it is done - but rather "how"

8000 German companies are meantime manufacturing in China, next time check where your Braun or Bosch appliance comes from.

Including your top of the line I-pad, your copier, you name it.

If we still are not believing the Chinese have both the determination and means to make things up to our standards, we are hugely misjudging the entire situation.

Problem is that it is happening so quick that many believe denying this development makes the process perhaps "more comfortable" - but it's changing nothing.

No, the Chinese won't be building top Mercedes or Audis any time soon, but Mazdas and Toyotas they surely will.

In fact, solar or electrical powered.

Norbert

To set the record straight, for what it's worth a bunch of made-in-Japan pianos DID advance from consumer to professional. (See my note above.) The others stayed put, neither advancing nor falling.

Of course if some Chinese pianos continue to advance, there could come a time when the lack of advance for some Japanese pianos could eventually make life tough for the Japanese.

This happened to us (America) decades ago, when there was a point before the yen began to rise wherein the Japanese were making better quality pianos than many of ours and selling them here at a lower cost. This killed many many American piano makers.

I've been to Japan several times and my sense is despite all their economic woes, they're arguably smarter than we are and are not likely to go down the same way we did. Remember when Hallet Davis, Henry F. Miller, Kohler & Camble, Knabe, Chickering, Aeolian, and many many other brands were true American pianos?

I do not think Brent H missed the point at all, on the contrary he hit the point very well.

This is not a thread about 'Who makes the best Grand Pianos in China' in general terms. I have the feeling the OP simply is trying to get help for a dilemma he is struggling with.

If indeed he thinks "many techs here in the UK are anti- any Chinese grand" and " no local dealers but Chris Venables has a very good reputation although he is 250 miles away from my home (a long way in UK terms!)" i.e. no or few other dealers can be found "to work with" who can defend in detailed product quality terms (not prestige) why his higher line costs more and what exactly you are giving up in choosing his Chinese value brand" then it is indeed pointless "talking about specific instruments".

If neither a dealer nor a tech (or both) can be found by the OP he will never be happy with any of those grands how good they may be.

No argument can ever bring him into the comfort zone.

schwammerl.

Glad you said that: it's already happening - big time...



I'm not so sure about that. People are smart in different ways.
Americans can do things few others can, so can the Germans, French, Belgians or everybody else.

Not to forget the Japanese or Chinese.

In a commercial world that is becoming mainly price driven, some will have the advantage no matter *who* they are.

Let's not forget it wasn't the Chinese who invented *outsourcing* - it was us.

I'm all for outfoxing those guys, but we have to come up with something better than belittling what happened in the meantime, the new products being made or denying the strength, talent and potential of those involved.

I know many don't want to talk about this honestly especially as strong commercial interests happen to be involved.

The genie is out of the bottle and it's becoming a monster....

As a dealer in today's market and at least 'practically speaking' I am very happy to offer some of the "best there is" - and some of the better, yet highly affordable quality for consumers.

It may sound corny, but a *child's smile is a smile* and when people can afford something nice of very good quality, something they couldn't easily otherwise, it's all right by me.

While many are struggling in today's economy with monthly bills, it brings pleasure offering pianos one would be proud to own oneself.

In fact I'll think it'll increasingly tough for those relying mainly on "name brand recognition" without making a compelling case of clearly superior quality.

This IMHO is a challenge now - and will be even more in future.

Norbert

I was summarizing friend jivemutha's argument and saying that if one truly believes that the very fact of being made in China means it is junk, then the rest of the discussion would not matter. I was not agreeing with that line of argument, simply pointing out that it was a very unsubtle one we've all heard many times before at this point.

Correct.

Tenor,

When I wrote that

"The best retailer to work with is the one who can defend in detailed product quality terms (not prestige) why his higher line costs more and what exactly you are giving up in choosing his Chinese value brand. In your case, that evaluation should be in the light of three hours of serious play daily. I know Chris Venables could and would do that. I assume some of your local dealers would do the same"

I meant exactly that. The dealer who defines his products as they compare to each other IMO is far less likely to be spinning and hyping than the dealer who insists on only comparing his products to those that he does not sell and has never sold. Norbert, in his never-ending quest to attack Japanese pianos by whatever means be can conjure from his imagination, has given you a sterling example of the second kind of dealer.

I would have implicit trust in anything Chris Venables says, publicly or privately. However, 250 miles is a long way. I think if you dig hard enough locally, you'll come up with at least a couple of others who fit the mold. There is a problem though. Most dealers stock Chinese as their lowest priced option and treat the pianos as such. This shows up in their level of enthusiasm and in their level of attention to the hours they would need to put in to present the pianos at their best.

After a bunch of emails back and forth with brother Will (Venables), I believe you can extend the same respectful compliment to him as well.

I wish I were in Merry Olde England buying my Yamaha from these guys (not that we don't have a really good dealer locally).

Norbert, remember that lovely prepped yammy C1 that you would take home in an instant?

The debate over the Chinese manufacturers is very heated. They are all improving, are quite good already. No doubt they will get better someday.

But then, who will make cheap pianos after chinese piano's (and labor) has increased in price?

Despite how some people feel about Norbert, such as what 'type' of dealer he is or whether he is 'hyping' or not, one thing can be said for certain. He was right about some of the better quality pianos coming from China that he gave reports about on these forums, and this was already many years ago.

Forget (for a moment) about ratings and all of the politics going on here. If you carefully examine some of these wonderful pianos (from China no doubt) after sitting down to play them, you will see that the criterion of a quality instrument has been met, and there is no reason to doubt that they will last into the future just as any other quality piano.

I certainly did not.

But for the price of this piano, one could easily get a Brodmann 187, 6'4 Hailun or Ritmueller 188.

Now, you didn't ask me to compare these pianos to the C1, did you?

Norbert

Of course not! i dont think you have a never ending quest to attack Japanese pianos, that's all.

The info is accurate, and that's the reason I learn so much here. Thank you

Easier said than done, but a good idea nonetheless.

So, let's go straight to the words of the thread title: "Who Makes the best Grand Pianos in China"?

You're a concert tech. You uncrate and prep pianos from the Hailun factory and pianos from the Parsons factory.

Who gets the nod? Is it a wash? That would seem unlikely.

Is either more consistent sample to sample than the other?

Whose pianos arrive in a better state of action regulation?

How does each compare in build quality to pianos you receive from Mason & Hamlin or Estonia?

What makes Estonia worth more money?

What makes M & H worth even more money?

What is someone giving up in terms of product quality by buying something from Parsons or Hailun?

Why should someone even consider paying more for something from Estonia or Mason & Hamlin?

William,

If I read the questions you made follow the above - and in fact many more could be phrased - then perhaps 'a' thread title should be:

'What makes the best grand piano coming from China?'

But as it is my perception that the objective of opening this thread by the OP was mainly getting some advice on whether or not buying a Chinese grand piano in the UK - and not so much starting a general debate on this subject - I think my question cannot be the subject of the discussion here without hijacking the original thread and should in fact be the title of an entirely new thread all together.

schwammerl.

The majority of durable goods we purchase here in the US are now made in China. I examine every product I purchase to see where it is made, hoping to purchase US made products. It is very difficult, even when buying high end products.

I abandoned my principles when I purchased a Brodmann piano. I was set to buy a used RX-3, but I found the touch more to my liking on the Brodmann.

My problem with Chinese goods is not quality (we can discern quality), but that we are losing jobs in the US and encouraging poor labor practices in China. Not to forget the environmental cost of transporting around the world.

I have to have some blind faith and listen to my ears and fingers!

The problem with many piano assessors the fact that they know the piano is Chinese manufactured puts the piano at a disadvantage straight away i.e it has to be a good piano it is a 'Steinway' etc. Fine's guide may be be flawed on this point - why not try assessing pianos 'blind' and only being told the manufacturer when you have assessed it. Might make for some interesting comments.