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Just wondered what opinions the forum had on Chinese grand pianos makers

While I am sure opinions will vary among the Forumites, Larry Fine rates the Perzina as the current top-rated Chinese-made piano.

My personal opinion are 3 Chinese manufacturers-----Haillun Perzina and Broadman They are equally as good in my opinio

The op asked about grands and the Perzina grands are rated below Brodmann, Hailun and Ritmuller.

I missed that. Thanks for the correction.

Hailun, Brodmann seems good. Irmler, a subsidisry of Blüthner, also sounded good to my ear, but is not on the charts of Larry Fine. Essex is also quite nice. Ritmüller is good indeed. Good luck

Hi Tenor,

I gather from this thread that you're still sitting on the fence.

It seems pretty clear that Brodmann, Hailun, and Pearl River (through the Ritmuller label) are all seriously trying to export grand pianos to the West that can compete on grounds other than price. I'd say that's true of Heintzmann as well and I'm sure I'm missing some others.

The piano that I've liked the best (and which might have an inside track in terms of tone for a classical vocalist) is the Brodmann PE 187. However, I haven't tried them all by any means, and this is a very personal thing. That particular piano, the Brodmann PE 187, is made by Parsons Music in their Toyama factory. The factory has some other notable clients, including Kawai. I think it's safe to say that they do good work when they're paid well.

Fandrich & Sons, which imports stock Chinese pianos and extensively modifies/preps them in Washington State. Hailun is also good.

Larry Fine rates the Perzina grands below Hailun/Brodmann/Ritmüller with even a 'tentative' remark.

And the question is about grand pianos.

schwammerl.

A question of what's "best" is always dangerous to answer.

From my own observation and experience, the answer cannot be given by "brands" alone but more in consideration of individual models.

In the Brodmann line of pianos, while the shorter 162 grand is nice, the 187 and 212 grands are definitely outstanding.

In Hailun we have been mostly impressed with their respective 178 and 7'grands. The much discussed V series came as a complete surprise for those attending last year's NAMM and was extremely well received by all those who had a chance to try them.

Among those were a number of highly seasoned players including one admitted concert pianist. [the guy from Argentina - anybody remembering?]

Ritmuller has a 170 grand that IMHO "stands out" from their own and is a piano of virtually same quality as their larger 6' cousin.

And so it goes.

It's not just 'brand' but definitely 'model' also

Would expect same with some other brands worth same or similar consideration.

At same time, several makers are right now designing and re-designing existing models. The race is on in earnest with expectations of bar being raised higher and higher.

Including prices.

My own feel is that the time of good-excellent quality Chinese at very affordable prices is soon nearing the end.

Norbert

The latest Cunningham grand, that just came into their showroom this past week, is very impressive. Tim said there are a few changes from last year's model.

[i]Turandot wrote:

"I gather from this thread that you're still sitting on the fence.

It seems pretty clear that Brodmann, Hailun, and Pearl River (through the Ritmuller label) are all seriously trying to export grand pianos to the West that can compete on grounds other than price. I'd say that's true of Heintzmann as well and I'm sure I'm missing some others.

The piano that I've liked the best (and which might have an inside track in terms of tone for a classical vocalist) is the Brodmann PE 187. However, I haven't tried them all by any means, and this is a very personal thing. That particular piano, the Brodmann PE 187, is made by Parsons Music in their Toyama factory. The factory has some other notable clients, including Kawai. I think it's safe to say that they do good work when they're paid well."

I have tried several pianos in the past 4 months I have considered Estonia but here in the UK we do not have any dealers so I am unable to try one without a trip to the factory or mainland Europe.

Many techs here in the UK are anti- any Chinese grand so it is difficult to get opinions also longevity is an issue but not re-sale value whatever piano i buy will stay with me for some time. At the moment my current piano gets played an average of 3 hours a day - serious playing not just 'an opera singer accompanying himself at home or singing with an accompanist friend' not that this isn't serious playing!!

Norbert:

Here in the UK the W & L with slight modification are now being imported as Feurich 178 Professional II, I understand that Feurich are now owned by W & L?

Tenor70,



The new Feurich (Ningbo) - fomerly W&L - have indeed already become available in Europe. As the new Feurich website is still not on-line it is difficult (also for dealers) to refer to any specifics.

Summarizing one can say that Ernest Bittner (W&L), Julius Feurich and 'Ibach', mainly for new upright designs joined forces and created the 'new' Feurich company to built further on the extensive dealer network of W&L in Europe (> 250 dealers; some 2500 pianos sold annually) and differentiate the instruments from e.g. Hailun (also Ningbo but not distributed as a brand in Europe) by using different components, separete production lines within the factory, different voicing, exclusive new designs (models) and continuing (and extending) the existing 'Feurich Service Centers'. The pianos transit through these service centers before being delivered to dealers.
As a matter of fact much depends on the proper functioning of these centers for delivering an already well prepped piano to the dealer.
A further key element is the deication of the dealer himself as to get out the full potential out of these pianos. In fact this is equally true for any piano coming from China: dealer competencies and dedication are key!

Some Uk dealers already stock the new Feurich pianos. Mailny these are ex W&L dealers. Old W&L stock can easily be distinguised from Feurich Ningbo: different music desk and the serial number on the plate starts with an 'F'. Examples:

Shackelfor Pianos Cheshire

Robert's Pianos

Besbrode Leeds

Similarly for the same line of pianos a dealer network is on it's way to be set up in the U.S..:

Feurich USA

In an above post someone mentioned the Cunningham Pianos. This is in fact a home brand.

In the UK you also have a home brand based on the Hailun Ningbo pianos. As with the new Feurichs the aim is to differntiate these instruments from the regular line by having fitted specific components, taking full responsibility of pre-delivery preparation (voicing & regulation) and making it an honour to providing a high standard of post-delivery service. So more or less the same strategy as above but on a smaller local and personal customer focussed scale.
As dealer competencies and dedication are key, you are lucky to have such a home brand in the UK: The Venables Pianos.

Venables & Sons grand pianos

Will not elaborate any further as I assume there will be opportunities to do so if and when further threads concerning this subject are being opened on this forum in the future.

schwammerl.

There are many techs here who are "anti-Chinese grands" too, but not many who will tell you exactly why. I think some of it is understandable conservatism basked on lack of track record, and some of it is lack of familiarity. For all the hoopla here about Chinese pianos, there are many techs who have never worked on one, whereas most techs have worked on hundreds of Yamaha and Kawai grands and are very familiar with their service requirements. Also, if a tech is employed to service a new Chinese grand and the retailer who supplied the piano hasn't set it up properly and worked out the kinks, the tech's opinion of that piano brand will be downgraded.

The best retailer to work with is the one who can defend in detailed product quality terms (not prestige) why his higher line costs more and what exactly you are giving up in choosing his Chinese value brand. In your case, that evaluation should be in the light of three hours of serious play daily. I know Chris Venables could and would do that. I assume some of your local dealers would do the same.

NORDISKAPIANO Chinese-made piano, from design to the highest overall level of technology, but unfortunately in the hands of XXX defeat.

Everyone acknowledges that Chinese pianos are improving. Nonetheless, there remain in my view legitimate reasons to be still be somewhat skittish about them, as several of you have indicated the piano technicians in your countries have stated.

First, there isn't the same long solid track record that pianos from several other countries have carefully developed.

Secondly, it costs at least as much to bring a piano to the U.S. from China than Japan. Once at the dealership, Chinese pianos take up just as much floor space as any other and need to contribute significantly to the dealer's enormous overhead. And yet, despite these huge expenses, some of the prices are so low that it's hard to believe these give-away prices are SOLELY a function of inexpensive Chinese labor. It would make much more sense to figure that at least some of the difference for several of these brands might come from the use of less expensive (and therefore potentially lower quality) parts. I say this knowing that some have begun to use some German and Korean parts.

Finally, when we have limited information about how something will hold up in the long run, I don't think it's unreasonable to consider the country's overall track record. Germany has a reputation for making high quality stuff (e.g., Porsche, Steingraeber & Sohne, etc.) at the high end of the market. Japan has a reputation for making very reliable solid stuff often at a more middle-class price point (e.g., Toyota, Kawai, etc.)

I don't need to tell you what kind of reputation most Chinese stuff still has to this day, and from my experience, for good reason. OK--it's in flux and getting better. But I'd rather pay more and worry less. Larry Fine has yet to rate any of the many many Chinese piano lines as professional quality let alone performance quality.

Thanks Turandot. No local dealers but Chris Venables has a very good reputation although he is 250 miles away from my home (a long way in UK terms!) but certainly worth a visit.

I believe that argument could be summarized "everybody knows they are cheap junk". No need to talk about specific instruments in the face of such a convincing generalization as that.

Tenor,

I don't know if it's any closer, but I've heard good things about how Hurstwood Farms preps its Chinese pianos and presents them realistically to customers without hype.

Hurstwood stocks Wendl&Lung. I don't know if they are transitioning from W&L to Feurich.

http://www.hurstwoodfarmpianos.co.uk/