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Re: Tempest Sonata [Re: stores] #1822441
01/10/12 11:55 PM
01/10/12 11:55 PM
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Hakki Online content
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Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by Hakki
Just try to imitate this and you will be fine.

regards,


No. Don't try to imitate anyone. Be original. Think for yourself. Do your homework and learn all you can so that when you sit to play we hear Beethoven.


Of course.
I meant to say, just think of him as your teacher saying "look, let me show you one possibility how I would play" during a lesson. Normally a teacher does that, dosen't he?

regards,

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Re: Tempest Sonata [Re: Hakki] #1822471
01/11/12 01:01 AM
01/11/12 01:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Hakki
[...]I meant to say, just think of him as your teacher saying "look, let me show you one possibility how I would play" during a lesson. Normally a teacher does that, dosen't he?

regards,


Interesting comment. Except for one public performance in a Beethoven Piano Trio a few years ago, I've never heard my teacher play, except a phrase or two.

Regards,


BruceD
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Re: Tempest Sonata [Re: hopinmad] #1822492
01/11/12 01:41 AM
01/11/12 01:41 AM
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Beethoven Tempest Sonata Opus 31, no. 2
m21 triplets

In my book, the triplet trill should be seen as being sandwiched between the crusts of a growl-like 4-note LH sequence ... and then
jumped to the top crust of a 7-note treble profile ... as with

m21 ... D, F, A
m22 ... D - A
m23 ... G#, A, Bb, A
m34 ... A - A

Some of us lithe chappies manage to cross hands (left over right) in sounding the crust theme ... so as to maintain the inner RH tremor trill.

PS. The tied LH D-notes (to my Schirmer score) are IMHO in error.

Re: Tempest Sonata [Re: Hakki] #1822559
01/11/12 03:58 AM
01/11/12 03:58 AM
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Here, as opposed to there
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Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted by Hakki
Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by Hakki
Just try to imitate this and you will be fine.

regards,


No. Don't try to imitate anyone. Be original. Think for yourself. Do your homework and learn all you can so that when you sit to play we hear Beethoven.


Of course.
I meant to say, just think of him as your teacher saying "look, let me show you one possibility how I would play" during a lesson. Normally a teacher does that, dosen't he?

regards,


Listening to a recording and having a lessons with Danny (which I would love) are two different things and no, not everyone plays whatever work (or portions thereof) at the lesson. There are entire days of teaching where I never even touch the piano.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: Tempest Sonata [Re: btb] #1822562
01/11/12 03:59 AM
01/11/12 03:59 AM
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Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted by btb


PS. The tied LH D-notes (to my Schirmer score) are IMHO in error.


And for owning a Schirmer edition you are in error.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: Tempest Sonata [Re: hopinmad] #1822566
01/11/12 04:33 AM
01/11/12 04:33 AM
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Pretoria South Africa
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Take a good look at the score stores before ending up a ripe Charlie.

It's not possible to tie the LH notes over the three measures while the treble is dancing ... the publishers got it wrong ...
but if you want to argue with von Bulow, be my guest.

Re: Tempest Sonata [Re: btb] #1822928
01/11/12 06:27 PM
01/11/12 06:27 PM
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Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted by btb
Take a good look at the score stores before ending up a ripe Charlie.

It's not possible to tie the LH notes over the three measures while the treble is dancing ... the publishers got it wrong ...
but if you want to argue with von Bulow, be my guest.


I know the Tempest very well, btb. I'd venture to say I know it measure for measure better than most here, but I've not paid very close attention to this thread and so I must plead ignorance regarding the subject at hand. I am not, however, in the dark regarding the Schirmer edition. It's good for nothing but filling the nearest garbage can.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: Tempest Sonata [Re: hopinmad] #1823096
01/12/12 01:14 AM
01/12/12 01:14 AM
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Pretoria South Africa
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What edition do you use stores?

After 50 years valiant service my Schirmer edition is a fragile assembly of single pages ... perhaps I should treat myself to a
new edition like yours.


Re: Tempest Sonata [Re: btb] #1823100
01/12/12 01:32 AM
01/12/12 01:32 AM
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Originally Posted by btb
What edition do you use stores?

After 50 years valiant service my Schirmer edition is a fragile assembly of single pages ... perhaps I should treat myself to a
new edition like yours.

Would be curious what edition stores uses. I've always used Tovey, though I understand it is not the most up to date. However, Tovey's sometimes witty annotations are fun to read, and often very illuminating. Methinks you would enjoy!

I've heard many negative comments about the Schirmer, though I have only looked at it in passing. No one I know personally has used it.



Jason
Re: Tempest Sonata [Re: hopinmad] #1823112
01/12/12 02:10 AM
01/12/12 02:10 AM
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Pretoria South Africa
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Sonata Opus 31, no.2 (measures 21-24 ... 1st movement)

Thanks for that fan ... Tovey looks like a good bet for the Beethoven Sonatas edition.

However, the point at issue is the LH tie to measures 22-24 (incl.) ... my contention is that the bottom A does not just drift along horizontally as a tied note (spread over 3 measures) ... the crux of the masterly construction is that, at m22, the bottom A in fact spreads to 3/4 of the measure ... before leaping to the 7 note treble outline from m22-24 (incl.).

Any use of the pedal should enhance this upper and lower “crust” outline ... with the
triplet trill maintaining a steady “sandwiching” inner content.

Hoping my explanation doesn’t mystify ... my system of graphic notation has proved a demanding format, in that all structural parts must be tidily linked (no loose ends) ...
thus the LH tied A over 3 measures is not only incorrect, but an impossibility to hold while
36 triplets are dancing up and down ... not to mention the treble input.


Re: Tempest Sonata [Re: btb] #1823136
01/12/12 03:56 AM
01/12/12 03:56 AM
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Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted by btb
What edition do you use stores?

After 50 years valiant service my Schirmer edition is a fragile assembly of single pages ... perhaps I should treat myself to a
new edition like yours.



Argerichgroupie, above there, hit it on the head. I actually own four different editions (and a few odds and ends), but the Tovey is my favorite. The new Cooper is brilliant, but you can't go wrong with good old Donald. If you can find it, his companion book to the sonatas is very good also.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: Tempest Sonata [Re: hopinmad] #1823244
01/12/12 09:47 AM
01/12/12 09:47 AM
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Pretoria South Africa
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Beethoven Sonata 31, no. 2 ... measures 21-24 (incl).

Earlier I had commented

“However, the point at issue is the LH tie to measures 22-24 (incl.) ... my contention is that the bottom A does not just drift along horizontally as a tied note (spread over 3 measures) ... the crux of the masterly construction is that, at m22, the bottom A in fact spreads to 3/4 of the measure ... before leaping to the 7 note treble outline from m22-24 (incl.).”
My Schirmer’s edition endorses this view (bottom page 321)

“Give due prominence to the principal motive in the bass and the subsequent melody in the soprano.”

Re: Tempest Sonata [Re: stores] #1823356
01/12/12 12:56 PM
01/12/12 12:56 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 11,057
Williamsburg, VA
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Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by btb


PS. The tied LH D-notes (to my Schirmer score) are IMHO in error.


And for owning a Schirmer edition you are in error.


I have two editions, Henle and Schnabel. They each have certain virtues.

Re: Tempest Sonata [Re: hopinmad] #1823914
01/13/12 08:55 AM
01/13/12 08:55 AM
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I play the triplets in measures 20-39 with my right hand and cross over playing the melody with my left hand. When playing this section, it is critically important to bring out the dynamic contrasts between 4 note bass melody (forte) and the 7-note treble melody (piano). The triplets can be used to accentuate these dynamic contrasts. However, it is critically important not to drown out the 7-note treble melody with the triplets; it is easy to do this since the 7-note treble melody is to be played piano.

I have also looked at multiple editions of this sonata. In addition to the ones previously mentioned, I have used the Dover edition edited by Heinrich Schenker. Regarding the Schirmer edition by Hans von Bulow, one of the problems is that von Bulow adds directives to the score which are his own and not those of Beethoven himself. They are in a sense von Bulow's own interpretation of Beethoven's piano sonatas and not necessarily what Beethoven intended. Von Bulow was one of the most famous conductors of the 19th century and is also credited with being the first to play all 32 Beethoven sonatas in a single concert cycle.

Re: Tempest Sonata [Re: hopinmad] #1824482
01/14/12 12:19 AM
01/14/12 12:19 AM
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Pretoria South Africa
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Thanks for that Otis ... you are obviously one of those “lithe” chappies ... without a mountainous gut from soaking up too much beer ... to play

“ triplets in measures 20-39 with my right hand and cross over playing the melody with my left hand.”

Nevertheless, it takes some working on to maintain that smooth cross over.

Cheers!

Re: Tempest Sonata [Re: Otis S] #1824487
01/14/12 12:54 AM
01/14/12 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Otis S
Regarding the Schirmer edition by Hans von Bulow, one of the problems is that von Bulow adds directives to the score which are his own and not those of Beethoven himself. They are in a sense von Bulow's own interpretation of Beethoven's piano sonatas and not necessarily what Beethoven intended.

Bülow gets quite a bad rap these days -one of my teachers called it an 'atrocious' edition, and whilst I'm not intimately familiar with it, some of his annotations seem rather defensive. (Nothing like his edition of the Cramer etudes wherein he is positively bullheaded and dictatorial!)

But I do wonder how much of Bülow's 'interpretation' derives from his study of Beethoven with his teacher Liszt, and in fact I recall that in the Op 110 he makes mention of Liszt's playing of it.

BTW, ever heard any of Bülow's original piano works? They are about as interesting as the works of Liszt's other great early student, Tausig.


Jason
Re: Tempest Sonata [Re: argerichfan] #1824617
01/14/12 09:17 AM
01/14/12 09:17 AM
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Btb:

You make a good point regarding physical characteristics which can affect what one can comfortably play on the piano. This is obviously a key reason why fingerings and note distributions across hands should be individualized for each person.

Argerichfan:

I am not familiar with Hans von Bulow's piano compositions. Are there any particular ones which you would recommend?

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