Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Public Humiliation for a ringing cell phone owner at N YPhil

I have taken to carrying candies to concerts which I hand out to someone coughing near me.

Fine, as long as they don't have to be unwrapped!

Would you rather have someone unwrap a candy or cough through a piece?

I find it rude and disrespectful when someone leaves their cell phone on during a performance piece. Also, if one is having a coughing fit, why not get up and leave, then return when its under control. Why subject the audience and the conductor to this disruption?

I am not sure quite how to interpret that. I do not think twice about turning to look at people who are talking during a performance. Glaring at them, in fact. Or motioning people who are reading or sending texts to turn their phone OFF.

My impression is that the vast majority of people attending New York Philharmonic concerts are reasonably well behaved and would not knowingly create a disturbance for others. The situation described by Andromaque is rare. To me, the key problem is that lesser disturbances such as turning pages in a program or unwrapping a candy can create a disturbance to others, particularly if it occurs during quiet passages. Low levels of ambient noise which might be OK when watching a movie or listening to a a lecture might be totally unsuitable for a classical music performance. Not all of the audience members are attuned to this. If they were, I believe that the noise issue would decrease; the vast majority of people attending such concerts do not want to create disturbances for others. Therefore, I would be in favor of better education so that audiences are aware of the disturbances that even low levels of ambient noise can create. If programs contained a paragraph indicating this, that would be a step in the right direction.

If he were dead, he would never do it again. Pretty good deterrent if you ask me.

A fake gun and an evil stare would do.

Then the conductor might stop the concert and say "How dare you leave? How disrespectful! I refuse to play here anymore" or one of the audience members might say "How dare you block my view? How dare you leave when your seat is not the aisle seat? You have to inconvenience 20 others to get out of here and then you want to come back? Not happening!" What does one do then? Just curious.. I'm not saying I like people coughing or whispering, I hate that too. However, I just don't see any reasonable solution for things like coughing (when its involuntary. I know some people here are talented and can suppress coughs, they probably can suppress fevers too.. I can't).

Some (clueless?) people have no idea how distracting - in a darkened theatre or concert hall - the lit blue screen from a silent cell phone can be. Whenever it catches the corner of my eye, I, alas! am constantly drawn to it and my concentration on and enjoyment of the music are ruined.

Regards,

Only in USA and especially Carnegie Hall.

I'm sure the programs from Lincoln Center and/or Carnegie Hall include a section on concert etiquette. I know I have read it in the past. And yet, I also know all too well that phones ringing, candies unwrapped and all kinds of other nuisance behavior have occurred in both venues. I wish what you wrote were true, but I must disagree. Sure, maybe a bunch of people have the best of intentions but I also feel that many others are simply too inconsiderate or selfish to care.

In fact, from "The Concert Experience" on Carnegie Hall's website:

"A concert at Carnegie Hall is memorable, and we want everyone to enjoy their time here.

We ask that you please turn off your cell phone and other electronic devices before entering the Hall, and refrain from taking pictures.

There's no dress code, and we have a coat check. We want you to be comfortable.

Just be considerate of others. Be subtle with perfumes and scents, and please turn off your cell phone and other electronic devices before entering the Hall.

Tapping, humming, and singing along can be lots of fun—but not necessarily for the person sitting next to you. We love to see children in the audience; please remind them that being courteous of others is part of the experience.

If you need any help or have any questions, please feel free to talk with one of our helpful, friendly ushers. And please help yourself to the free Ricola cough drops (remember to unwrap them before the music starts)."

http://www.carnegiehall.org/Information/Concert-Experience/

The ones that used to be given away for free at Carnegie Hall are wrapped in "silent" wax paper. They are (used to be) in big jars outside the hall. I have not seen them in a while though.


For what it's worth, Mr. Gilbert has spoken to the NY Times . I excerpt his version below. Apparently it was the annoying Marimba tone that rang relentlessly, and it must have been am alarm and not an actual phone call, thus the length of the disturbance. The thing would have gone on and on had the guy not finally turned it off.

From the NY Times:
Mr. Gilbert, the orchestra’s music director, said he turned to the area of Avery Fisher Hall where the sound was coming from, in one of the front rows, and asked the unknown miscreant to turn off the phone. (It was an individual who apparently failed to heed the recorded announcement from the actor Alec Baldwin to silence cellphones that is played before the Philharmonic’s performances.)

“Nothing happened,” Mr. Gilbert said in a telephone interview on Wednesday. “Nobody was owning up to it. It was surreal.” The phone kept ringing – the iPhone’s marimba ring-tone, according to the music blogger Paul Pelkonen, who wrote about the incident.

Mr. Gilbert said audience members pointed out two people sitting where the sound was coming from. “They were staring at me resolutely,” he said of the couple. Eventually, the man put his hand in his pocket and the ringing stopped. “It was so weird,” Mr. Gilbert said. “Did he think he could just bite his lip and soldier through?”

The conductor said he asked the man if he was sure the device was quieted. “Then he nodded his head,” Mr. Gilbert said. Guilty!

People in the hall had been shouting for the sound to stop. Mr. Pelkonen reported that they yelled: “Thousand-dollar fine!” “Kick him out!” “Get out!” Another blogger, who was present, Max Kinchen, wrote, “They wanted blood!”

Mr. Gilbert, in the interview, said: “It was so shocking what happened. You’re in this very far away spiritual place in the piece. It’s like being rudely awakened. All of us were stunned on the stage.”

The conductor then apologized to the audience for stopping, saying that usually it’s best just to ignore such a disruption, but this case was too much. The audience cheered and applauded. He then started the music again, picking a loud passage leading into the tranquil final minutes to begin.

Ringing cellphones are a common scourge of live performances, and indeed, most musicians soldier on. “Usually it’s not Mahler Nine you’re playing,” Mr. Gilbert said, “and usually it’s not the most emotionally wrought part of Mahler Nine, and usually people deal with it.”

He said he was convinced the sound was an alarm because of its continuous nature.

The policy at Avery Fisher Hall, run by Lincoln Center, where the Philharmonic is a tenant, is for ushers to approach the owners of ringing phones and ask them discreetly to turn off the devices, said Eric Latzky, the orchestra’s spokesman. “In this incident, unfortunately the policy was not followed,” he said.

Betsy Vorce, a spokeswoman for Lincoln Center, said officials were talking to the ushers involved. “This is one incident where the policy wasn’t followed,” she said. “We’re investigating it. We’ll take corrective action if necessary.”

The ushers do not answer directly to orchestra management, and Mr. Gilbert said no ushers were in sight at the time of the ringing. “I heard this morning that ushers in the hall claimed they didn’t hear it, which sounds ridiculous to me,” he said. “Everybody could hear it.”

You're right -- I wouldn't be that guy. Nobody I know would. The issue is, as you say, one of fitting the punishment to the crime.

I suspect the reason mobile phones arouse so much wrath is because the problem described in the OP happens all the time.

If the story referred to in the OP is correct, then it's describing a public response to what ought, normally, to be a minor irritation as similar to the outrage that might be expected if it were discovered that the man were a child-abuser or a rapist. It's as if some poor devil has been made the scapegoat for all the countless times that we've all be irritated by mobile phones.

It may be an understandable reaction but, in a civilised society, it isn't one that should be condoned.

I hardly find the outrage described similar to that reserved for rapists and child abusers. That said, the violator shouldn't be allowed to enter the premises again as far as I'm concerned. The idiot just sat there even after being outed. Either not too bright or simply doesn't care, but if I had my way he'd certainly care. By the way, I don't think the thread aptly titled. Obviously, this person was not humiliated.

Or he was so humiliated that he couldn't face the "walk of shame" with everybody watching. I doubt he'd be appearing there again any time soon.

I am well aware of these types of rules of etiquette. My point was that the statement from the Carnegie Hall Web site quoted in your note as well as similar rules of etiquette in program guides are not sufficient regarding refraining from making noise. Much of what is stated on the Carnegie Hall Web site would be applicable for other public events where sound is not critically important. As I stated in my earlier post, it is critical to emphasize that classical music concerts are more prone to sound disturbances than other public events such as movies and lectures. It needs to be communicated to the audience that at a classical music concert, sound is paramount. Music is unamplified with many quiet passages. The sound of pages being turned in a program or candy being unwrapped may not be problematic in a movie theatre but could very well be a problem in a classical music concert. People who have a deep appreciation for classical music are generally aware of this. However, not everyone who attends a classical music concert falls into this category, and such people may benefit from an explanation of why audiences should try to be as quiet as possible.



My post contains several statements, and the fact that you have an awareness and sensitivity to the noise distractions I referred to indicates agreement with at least part of what I wrote. Perhaps you are referring to my first two sentences:



I stand by this. People creating major noise disturbances are in a distinct minority (undoubtedly below 50% of all concert goers. If that were false, New York Philharmonic concerts would have much considerably higher levels of ambient noise). If the situation described by Andromaque were a common occurrence, then no one would be surprised by what happened and there would not have been publicity for this incident nor this discussion on Piano World.

We have no reliable way of estimating what percentage of people are "too inconsiderate or selfish to care." but it is certainly a distinct minority of concert attendees. The vast majority of people are trying to be quiet; however, not everyone in the audience has the same sensitivity or awareness of ambient noise levels. I believe that a sizeable portion of those making low levels of ambient noise could be encouraged to be quieter through proper education. This will not totally solve the problem but could improve things. Regarding the situation during the Mahler symphony, I agree that better education may be insufficient to curb behavior such as this. Fortunately, incidents as blatant as this are not that common.

That's the response you would have to a child abuser or a rapist? Mine would be considerably harsher, particularly for the child abuser.

There is a tiny gap to the analogy here: Is the child rapist remorse? Sentenced, gone to jail and back in society? someone we just know was accused and not much else? Someone who's guilty and gone to fish children (in a classical concert unlikely).

I do feel that anyone has a right to stray off the 'right' path and be reinstituted to society, so I'm not sure it's right to know that someone was sentenced for a rape in the 1980s and now he still carries the burden of being accused wherever he goes just for that...

On the other hand if someone recently did it, there are no doubts, etc, then he can very well go to heck, not just get a bit uncomfortable for what he did in a concert hall!

If you are going to combine child abuse and rape, I would be harsher still. If my child were raped, I would not rest until the perpetrator was dead. I can't see doing that to a person with a cell phone, but he would certainly get a comment and a glare.