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Re: Key "Thump" heard downstairs - advice on how to quiet? [Re: gvfarns] #1816731
01/01/12 10:02 PM
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Well, let me clarify. The slab solves the problem of the thump traveling through the floor to the room downstairs but it does nothing to remedy the thump that others in the room hear while you're playing in headphones.

Curt

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Re: Key "Thump" heard downstairs - advice on how to quiet? [Re: CrashTest] #1816806
01/02/12 12:52 AM
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I really wanted to keep the keyboard at the same level as my bench, I have the Roland stand for it and I like the height - any different and I'll get back aches.

I wonder if a really thin piece of plywood or similar could also do the trick. I tried some towels but they didn't do anything.


Re: Key "Thump" heard downstairs - advice on how to quiet? [Re: curt88] #1816809
01/02/12 12:57 AM
01/02/12 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by curt88
Well, let me clarify. The slab solves the problem of the thump traveling through the floor to the room downstairs but it does nothing to remedy the thump that others in the room hear while you're playing in headphones.

Curt


You will never eliminate the knocking sound within the room, so I think you have correctly identified the one thing you can have an impact on: the flimsiness of the rail the hammers hit. If you have to add extra mass there, you will have to accept the extra weight. I think if you tried them all, you'd find that all DPs make more noise than you would like in this regard. The easiest solution is to accept that and become more tolerant to it (the people who are bothered by it, that is). You'll never eliminate it entirely. Maybe you can reduce it by 30-40% with the ideas you have discussed: and that might be just enough for you. It might make it a bit heavier though, which is not great if you want to take it out gigging. Only you can judge where that tipping point is. For what it's worth, I doubt that making the flimsy rail more solid will affect the feel of the action. I doubt that rail being able to vibrate was a conscious decision in terms of piano realism. I think it's probably more a case of that was good enough to get the job done, whilst keeping the weight down for a gigging keyboard.

Re: Key "Thump" heard downstairs - advice on how to quiet? [Re: CrashTest] #1816813
01/02/12 01:06 AM
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Though I believe the issue is that the sound is being transmitted down through the floor to people downstairs. This can probably be almost completely fixed using a granite slab etc., I would think. Might need to do a little soundproofing on the room (towel under the door) as well because those sounds can sneak all around.

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Re: Key "Thump" heard downstairs - advice on how to quiet? [Re: gvfarns] #1816857
01/02/12 02:39 AM
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Have use seen the Auralex åcoustics website? They specialize in sound isolation. I use one of their platforms (wood + foam) for my subwoofer and it does the trick. They're in Indianapolis, so I don't know if they have international distribution.

Re: Key "Thump" heard downstairs - advice on how to quiet? [Re: CrashTest] #1816910
01/02/12 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by CrashTest
I really wanted to keep the keyboard at the same level as my bench, I have the Roland stand for it and I like the height - any different and I'll get back aches.

You could get an adjustable bench and raise it up an inch to accommodate the extra height of the slab. It's what I use. Just a suggestion.

Originally Posted by CrashTest
I wonder if a really thin piece of plywood or similar could also do the trick. I tried some towels but they didn't do anything.

No, you need something with mass to absorb the frequencies. Maybe you could find someplace to cut a half-inch granite slab for you?

Curt

Re: Key "Thump" heard downstairs - advice on how to quiet? [Re: CrashTest] #1820951
01/08/12 02:58 PM
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I bought some 3/8 inch granite tiles from Home Depot - and placed them under both legs. Unfortunately this was not enough to create any difference, the thump was still heard as before. The pieces were both 12x12 inches, one under each leg.

Is that too thin? Do I need some thicker granite for it to have any effect?

Any ideas, curt88? What did you use?

Re: Key "Thump" heard downstairs - advice on how to quiet? [Re: CrashTest] #1820977
01/08/12 03:29 PM
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Granite tiles?
You need something soft to absorb shock, not something hard.

Carpet might help, or foam padding.
Unfortunately, things that help absorb the shock will also contribute to shakiness and instability of the piano stand. frown
Still, ya gotta do whatcha gotta do ... to keep the neighbors happy.

Re: Key "Thump" heard downstairs - advice on how to quiet? [Re: CrashTest] #1820981
01/08/12 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by CrashTest
I bought some 3/8 inch granite tiles from Home Depot - and placed them under both legs. Unfortunately this was not enough to create any difference, the thump was still heard as before. The pieces were both 12x12 inches, one under each leg.

Is that too thin? Do I need some thicker granite for it to have any effect?

Any ideas, curt88? What did you use?

It sounds like you need more mass, a complete slab under the whole DP and maybe the bench too. Pieces under the legs, even quite thick, won't help.

You could also try the floating wood or MDF platform - it floats on tennis balls that fit underneath into holes 2/3 the diameter of a ball. This has been reported on here as successful too.

Re: Key "Thump" heard downstairs - advice on how to quiet? [Re: CrashTest] #1820998
01/08/12 04:07 PM
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Yeah, as I think I might have mentioned, a layer of soft stuff under a layer of hard/heavy stuff, with another layer of soft stuff between your DP and the hard thing seems like it would be a likely candidate.

Re: Key "Thump" heard downstairs - advice on how to quiet? [Re: CrashTest] #2613783
02/12/17 12:53 PM
02/12/17 12:53 PM
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I have the same problem!

My neighbours of the bottom floor don't like the key noise of my Kawai MP11 when I play the piano (even when I play with headphones). I use the Kawai with a K&M 18953 stand.

[Linked Image]

I am looking for a solution. I was thinking on two different things, but I don't know if some of them will work (or perhaps the 2 together):

- Something expensive like a carpet specially designed for drums (like the Roland TDM-10 V-Drum Matte). What do you think? Should this work? I think if it can reduce the impact noise of a Drum, should work with the noise of piano keys... Or not?

[Linked Image]

- Something cheapper like the Jahn IsoFloor cups. But I think they are designed for real Acoustic Pianos and Grand Pianos (more heavy than a simple keyboard). So I don't know if this will work in my case...

[Linked Image]

Any other solution?

I'm worried if some of these things will make my keyboard wobble... I bought that stand because it's very, very stable, so now I don't want to get movement when playing...

Last edited by ChoPraTs; 02/12/17 01:08 PM.
Re: Key "Thump" heard downstairs - advice on how to quiet? [Re: ChoPraTs] #2613789
02/12/17 01:19 PM
02/12/17 01:19 PM
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If you have laid your floor covering using the standard subfloor panels ( which usually dampen noise about 8-12db ) and the floor is soft as in carpeting, you have fulfilled the legal requirements. If the house is still too noisy, the landlord should apply measures.. Least that is how it is here.

If your floor covering is a hard one ( laminate or wood ) just make sure it does not touch the walls or doorways baseboards or pipes - if it does anywhere, it will work like the soundboard of a piano and capture resonances and transmit them on..

Hard rubber dampening will shave some db's off the noise, but softer materials will add bounce to that stand yes.


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Re: Key "Thump" heard downstairs - advice on how to quiet? [Re: CrashTest] #2613796
02/12/17 01:34 PM
02/12/17 01:34 PM
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This solved the problem for me. And my particular DP is well known for having a very noisy keyboard mechanically (PHA II and III)

Last edited by toddy; 02/12/17 01:35 PM.

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Re: Key "Thump" heard downstairs - advice on how to quiet? [Re: CrashTest] #2613825
02/12/17 05:09 PM
02/12/17 05:09 PM
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Reading this thread, I imagine the problem had nothing to do with the keybed or action, and more with the fact that you are slamming down on the keys forcefully enough for the vibrations to carry through the chassis of the DP, down the legs and into the floor.

Isolating the stand should help the most, the drum mat seems like a great option. I would also see about increasing the surface area of the feet of those skinny legs. Those moving casters on top of the may should help a lot.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Key "Thump" heard downstairs - advice on how to quiet? [Re: ChoPraTs] #2613853
02/12/17 09:11 PM
02/12/17 09:11 PM
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Milano
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Originally Posted by ChoPraTs
- Something expensive like a carpet specially designed for drums (like the Roland TDM-10 V-Drum Matte). What do you think? Should this work? I think if it can reduce the impact noise of a Drum, should work with the noise of piano keys... Or not?

[Linked Image]

- Something cheapper like the Jahn IsoFloor cups. But I think they are designed for real Acoustic Pianos and Grand Pianos (more heavy than a simple keyboard). So I don't know if this will work in my case...

[Linked Image]



I think that drum carpet is really just to protect the flooring and give the drums something to grip on. I would expect very little noise isolation for your neighbour.

I think those isolation cups are unlikely to help much either.

Building some type of isolation platform like that youtube tennis-ball platform could work. Problem is that the tennis balls will have a certain pressure which will influence which fq are attenuated and by how much. You could add and remove tennis balls for optimal results. Unfortunately, tennis balls loose their pressure over time.

Probably a few different layers of different rubber would make a most effective platform. The trick is figuring what combo works best.

Another idea would be adding some dampeners to each of the four
piano legs (think like small car shock absorbers). But that might feel strange if your bench is connected with the floor and the piano is a bit isolated...

Last edited by newer player; 02/12/17 09:14 PM.
Re: Key "Thump" heard downstairs - advice on how to quiet? [Re: CrashTest] #2613890
02/13/17 03:17 AM
02/13/17 03:17 AM
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The clue is to alternate a stiff layer (better: stiff and heavy, like granite) with a soft layer.
Put some foam (which still holds the weight) on the ground and some granite on top!

Re: Key "Thump" heard downstairs - advice on how to quiet? [Re: CrashTest] #2626762
03/25/17 08:36 AM
03/25/17 08:36 AM
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And what about this? Have someone tried?

[Linked Image]

https://www.thomann.de/es/jahn_piano_gleiter.htm

You can see in the comments of the Thomann Store (deuth version) that someone is using it with a Roland FP-7F keyboard and a 4 legs stand to reduce the noise on the floor.

Re: Key "Thump" heard downstairs - advice on how to quiet? [Re: newer player] #2626773
03/25/17 09:28 AM
03/25/17 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by newer player


I think that drum carpet is really just to protect the flooring and give the drums something to grip on. I would expect very little noise isolation for your neighbour.


That is correct. Drum mats don't do anything to block the noise, it is to protect the floor and also keep the drums from sliding away.

I don't know about the isolation cups, but they will likely work better than carpet. Basically, the piano needs to be decoupled from the floor to keep the vibrations caused by the keys from being transmitted straight to the floor (which, becomes a big soundboard).

If you think piano lamps are surprisingly expensive, be aware that good sound isolation mats and risers are just as much so. But it can be worth it for sure.

You could look at something like an Auralex Drum Isolation Pad (Which is different than the mat, and more expensive at $220) but that will actually provide some decoupling where the carpet would not.

I have never used that product myself, but I have used other Auralex pads / decouplers for speakers, and they do work well. Don't expect a pad to remove all of the sound though, no matter how good. But they will attenuate it *greatly*.

Re: Key "Thump" heard downstairs - advice on how to quiet? [Re: CrashTest] #2626881
03/25/17 03:39 PM
03/25/17 03:39 PM
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Quote
. . . Unfortunately, tennis balls loose their pressure over time.


FWIW --

Based on what I understand about acoustics, that "tennis-ball platform" is, by far, the best "bang for the buck" you can find. You need _compliance_ -- squishiness -- between the floor and the DP. Tennis balls are a cheap way to get that, and plywood is reasonably stiff and heavy.

When the tennis balls lose pressure, you can replace them cheaply and easily. Even a 'dead' tennis ball will be a good vibration isolator.

I was just thinking about a variant:

. . . Make a small (8" x 8") platform under each leg of a 4-leg stand, with 4 balls in each platform.

Might be worth trying.


. Charles
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