Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum whatever happened to manners?

A few things from my experience (which should be rather big being a mod in various big forums)...

1. I don't see many trolls here in PW! Yes they do come from time to time, but very fast they are kicked out, not only from the mods, but also from the community itself. Trolls are not a problem, but probably a fun break-time!

2. At the same time it seems to me that while the Internet is populated by 13 year olds who use l33t sp33ch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leet), PW is populated by 'normal' people and actually quite older than the average... :-/ (I think).

3. The manners issue is here for a few reasons: One is that this IS the internet (kevin already mentioned that I think). The other is that exactly because of the general average age of this forum members things get a bit more personal (it's much easier to let go when you're a high school student, rather than being a successful professional in your field).

Other than that, I'd like to state that I live in Greece (most of you should know that), and to complain about the negativity and misery that has conquered the whole world! :'( And it IS tiring to have to deal with that online, offline, real life or in the dream world! And exhausting actually!

Don't you think for the "most part" that manners are pretty good? I do. When things do turn sideways, it seems like it is the same people pushing buttons or something to make things twist to their own liking or, just to see what they can get out of it. Most often, the forums tend to police themselves too.

I agree, Jerry. I think that most people here are respectful. I tend to post very directly, and that is how I talk in real life too. I say what's on my mind, but I don't get out my claws unless I perceive someone is being disrespectful to me or other regulars here. I have been on several other forums and have seen some pretty nasty things being said without reason, whereas I know if that same conversation were had face to face, those things would not be said. It's just the nature of the beast.

i too think this forum is pretty polite.

I find (here in central USA) that the manners of kids are absolutely non existent.. they are nice, respectful but have not been taught how to say hello, thank you, introduce.

sooo.. i teach my kids' friends.

I answer the phone and they say - hi... and then silence. so i have to ask "is this Veronica?'

(now she is Russian and might have a different way of communicating on the phone and her parents both speak English as a 2nd language)...

so then I say. "hello Mrs. S... this is Veronica.. may I speak with Klara? or is Klara there?.." and they repeat it and laugh. you know, they learn after a while.. One of them has a facebook page called Klara's mother's manners.. it's pretty cute how they learn and make fun of me at the same time.

anyway, manners make life smooth and pleasant.

I sincerely apologize if I have offended anyone with this tangential post. Sorry, i don't use capitals.. Microsoft Word automatically puts them in and makes my business writing easier. .. and grammar and punctuation? what are those?

have a nice day.

I've been here since 2004.

I have not perceived any significant difference in either expertise or manners over that time.

Individuals skilled (or the reverse) at either area come and go, but the community remains relatively stable.

In my opinion.

Which you are free to disagree with, without any risk of hurting my feelings! Hee, hee.

Are you married?

As my Grandma used to say: everything you say should be true, kind, and necessary, but two out of three will do at a pinch. That a statement is true is not, by itself, sufficient reason to state it.

Truth (not sure I like the word - almost implies a Biblical infallibility on the part of the speaker, and a corresponding sinful lack thereof on the part of the receiver) but I digress.

Truth or opinion can usually be exressed in a tactful manner, or an offensive manner.

Part of the problem is that some opinion (I'm giving up on the truth word) can be expressed in a tactful manner yet perceived as offensive.

Another part of the problem is that some people will use truth (and here I DO use the word) as license to express in an offensive manner.

The solution is for imparters of truth to write as if their mother would read it, and receivers to be as thickskinned as warranted.

When a father presents his infant to you and says "Isn't she beautiful?" it may well be that the baby is in fact hideously ugly. No reasonable person would take the "truth" of the baby's ugliness as a requirement to respond "Heck no, that's the ugliest baby I've ever seen". Most of us would either say nothing or make an oblique comment like "You must be very pround of her".

But I guarantee if the baby's picture were presented online instead of in person, one or more individuals hiding behind anonymous screen names would feel "obliged" to inform the father exactly how unattractive that infant appears to themselves.

Your post has had me nodding my head in total agreement. Good post and well said.

Quite so -- and resisting the temptation to do just that is one of the reasons I never conceal my real identity on on-line forums.

But we've been here before, I think. That anonymity leads to an increase in the amount of impolite and ill-considered posting seems quite obvious to me, but many people contest this.

Does this dress make me look fat?

Honest but incomplete answer: No.

Truthful answer: No, dear, I don't think it's the dress.

I think when people talk about "truth" they're talking about being honest. In the above scenario with the ugly baby (and yes, there are some, although they often work it out as they get older, and some see the miracle of life itself as beauty), I would agree that refraining from being honest in that case is probably better, or finding something they can say in all honesty that would not be offensive. For example, "She has her father's nose!"

For those of you who might find themselves more in alignment with polyphasic's arguments from the quoted post, and have an interest in delving deeper into the ideas discussed (I know this kind of stuff isn't for everyone ) I offer this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-d4ugppcRUE

It's about an hour long so be in the mood to relax and absorb.

And for a more accessible (not as scientific as the above) and far more in-depth discussion, check out A New Earth by Eckhart Tolle. There is a pdf version online.


And thanks polyphasic for the suggested reading. I've previously read Hume's Treatise On Human Nature, and I may have encountered parts of the others at some point during one of my philosophy courses in college, but I'll look into them.

There are some other angles to all this. I've been shuttling back and forth between PW and fielding member concerns as moderator of a forum of another profession. A lot of things are similar.

You've got people who have invested a lot of effort to get to where they are, sometimes a lifetime. There are teachers, musicians (oft both) and amateur and professional musicians as well as students. As professionals, reputation matters and there is professional pride. But also as human beings. It is easy to think that your worth is being attacked when your ideas are rejected, and there is a certain sensitivity. And some people actually do attack the person himself: bad musician, poor teacher, ignorant student or parent.

There is also an investment in beliefs and ideas. What we do is based on our beliefs in how things work, so if those beliefs are questioned we may feel like we have "no leg to stand on" (and will fall down). And decades of amassing all this would have been a waste of time. Besides, it has worked. So there is reason to be disturbed, insulted, etc. Though people who have mastered their craft to a very high degree have often learned that there are many sides to things, and remain open to learning their entire life. Pavarotti at the end of his life, "I am still a student."

Then there is the stage similar to the fresh graduate from university with a degree, stuffed full of studies that told us exactly how things work. It's only a first stage. A bit later you learn there are exceptions to what you studied, you may get to question whether anything you ever learned was right, and finally realize that it was all an approximation of reality. That's maybe when you're with the veteran who is newly flexible as above. But for the moment the "fresh graduate" type of person (a mentality - not literal) tends to be rigid and dogmatic. He tends to preach to others, and be intolerant and critical of "failings". It is an idealism borne of a lot of knowledge, but maybe not enough. At times this thorn in the side might be good for getting jaded world-weariness a wake-up call.

And then in forums you get careless dabblers who mess around with what these others have worked so hard at. You also get exploiters - people putting on the mantle of teacher and promising fast results for a buck, and the inevitable exploited who believe them and defend them with misearned loyalty.

And then there are people who are simply jerks.

That's the mix we get in forums like this.

I think you get that mix in life, not just forums

Quote from Keystring:
"It is an idealism borne of a lot of knowledge, but maybe not enough."



I would change that to read, "...borne of a lot of knowledge, but not enough wisdom".


The latter only comes with experience and age....

I was sitting here cracking up because, many years ago, one of my wife's friends sent her a baby picture in the mail. She was one proud mother. What for, neither of us could figure out.... I swear to GOD that baby looked identical to a baby monkey!!! Ears and all! We put the picture in a drawer for whenever we had "bad days." We would open up the drawer, look at the picture, bust a gut and then feel better again. Thank GOD she did not ask us what we thought of the picture!!! I probably would have said something cute like "what a cute little monkey!!"

Doesn't it make you wonder why these kids don't know how to make a phone call?

You haven't offended me, for one! I have used pretty much a carbon copy of what you described when getting a call from one of my children's friends. I've been told by my kids that their friends are afraid of me because I'm mean! I can only conclude that my low-rumbling voice works better on dogs than on kids

As for this forum, I think it's very polite compared to other sites I've browsed. All I've seen so far is that sometimes people choose to misunderstand each other on purpose or due to neglect (as in commenting on a post without reading more than the first sentence).

Things get unbearable (think duelling flame-throwers) when person A gets in a war with person B, and both A and B know very little, always harp on the same subject, and all the rest of us get driven out of the room (or building) by the heat.