Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum whatever happened to manners?

This is a post of exasperation. Over the last year I have gained a lot of reading and taking part in this forum, and have started piano teaching as a business, partly because of the wisdom I can tap into here.

But threads so often turn nasty. One person says something which another takes offence to, and before you know it, it's just an argument about who's got the bigger balls. By which time the original, and genuine question has been forgotten. The subjects we disagree about are all too predictable - business ethic, reading vs memorising, etc, etc

Certain things, we have differing views on. I just don't like the forum being used as a beating-up-shop. It makes me reluctant to post a genuine question.

I sometimes feel the same way. I hesitate to post questions because questions asking for feedback, result in unsolicited criticism. Usually, the responder hasn't fully read the original posts, and throws out accusations or makes suggestions that have already been done. Before posting unfriendly opinions against someone's beliefs or policies, read thoroughly, so you know what you're talking about. And keep on track -- just answer the question please! We are all professionals here and uncharitable criticism against one another is hurtful and senseless.

Way too many egos amongst musicians .

Sometimes there are bad manners here.

And then, sometimes a simple disagreement is perceived as bad manners.

Happens both ways. Perhaps more with the latter.

I just don't get why it has to get personal. Suppose I don't like the way you play piano, teach piano, run your business? We don't share an office, we don't *need* go agree! It's fine, we can go our separate ways.

And if you insult me, what do I care? We'll never meet, so why should that matter to me?

(Just for clarity, by 'you' I don't mean any particular person, just 'someone' that might be posting on a thread.)

It's like baiting has become a sport. By 'baiting' I mean posting something not overtly insulting, but knowing that it will irritate someone, and probably spur them into insulting you, at which point, you can insult them back *and* get to take the moral high-ground.

Hi ten left thumbs. I hope you stay with us on this forum. I plan to do my best to use good manners. Occasionally I slip, but want to do better.

On the bright side, I have found that when I overlook the rude attitude of a post, and just look at the main point, I can learn from these insulting posts too (sometimes).

I think many folks believe that popping off at someone shows how powerful they are. Hopefully they'll learn in time that self control shows more power than shouting insults at people. I think self control has become undervalued.

Bad manners in forums most often comes down to a very small, yet loud, minority of participants. Being able to identify those types of members can help. When you read an outrageous post you can simply think to yourself "Oh, it's just so-and-so spouting off again" and not let it get to you.

There was another forum that I used to visit and post messages. I stopped because quite a few of the participants have bad manners, including the mods.

Threads like this have surfaced before. One poster explained that, because forum members don't talk face to face, we do get more confrontational. Had this forum been a real-life meeting, people would conduct themselves in a more civilized manner.

I think it is absolutely that people are protected by the distance and anonymity of cyber-space, that they feel it's OK to be rude. But, I do also spend time in other forums where participants are nice to each other. Not because they are moderated to death, but just because that's the ethic. It is possible.

True. However, people are more honest on these anonymous forums. A dose of honesty everyday can't hurt. If your policy sucks, other members here will tell you as much. You are welcome to disagree of course. Similarly, if my playing absolutely sucks, I would want somebody knowledgeable here to point it out to me. In fact, if I come here and post a recording claiming that its the best ever, and if it truly sucks, you would be doing me a favor by calling me delusional and explaining why exactly you think so (see the BachMach2 thread in the pianist corner recording forum). I'm not going to get that in person because people like to be nice to each other in person. So I really don't mind people getting confrontational with me as long as they have a valid point to make. I'm not here to date or to make friends, so I don't care if people aren't nice to me as long as I get useful information from their posts. I do care if they aren't nice AND have nothing useful to offer which is when I respond in kind. And finally, of course, like most other people here, I'm pretty nice in person. So people shouldn't be taking confrontations here too seriously. Look for the useful information in these posts and then move along.

I would say this is the crux of the problem.

It's the ease of hitting the "send button", I think, that is a large part of harsh words.

More than once a little voice has said, "Don't send that. Wait a few hours."

Then the OTHER voice (the devil/angel scenario!) says, "But you know you want to say this right now. Why censor?"

It is also very easy to forget the people we are talking to are real people, with issues, with difficult things happening in their lives.

However, I also think that there is always a very vocal minority that enjoys stirring the pot. In the real world they would either be ignored or totally avoided.

Here they have power and abuse it, often.

I have only recently started visiting forums such as this (the last 2 months). I started coming to this one because I was really put off by another forum that seemed to be nothing but people bashing each other and insulting others. I think for the most part, people are trying to be helpful but can come across as being rude. I have decided to overlook the rude tones I perceive (I can't necessarily read the tone of someone's comments); and focus on the experience and wisdom of others that I can learn from and hopefully help others with my own. I am personally trying to make sure that my comments don't insult others, because my actions are the only ones I can control.

I think though we need to make a distinction. It is one thing to "stir the pot" and it is another to just be a troll.

Stirring the pot can be a good thing. There is nothing wrong with playing the devil's advocate, in fact it can lead to healthy new insights in many cases.

I agree. A handful of otherwise interesting PW members have a consistent difficulty in comprehending that their public airing of private disagreements equates to bad manners.

Now the occasional slip up in the heat of discussion is not what I'm talking about. Most of us will suffer that error on occasion and it's to be expected in normal conversation. It's the "my opinions are fact, others are rubbish" enforcers who launch unending pong-battles that IMO could use a nice thick string-blanket.

Luckily it's not a majority. But yes, it is exasperating.

My 9th grader came home with his new schedule for this quarter. One teacher's info to students/parents has behavior expectations and it includes directions that students are not to ridicule each other. Maybe we need to add something like that here on PW.

I see the word "troll" used, but not sure what it means. Anyone care to explain?

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4] The noun troll may refer to the provocative message itself, as in: "That was an excellent troll you posted".

. . .

The "trollface" (pictured below) has become a well-recognized icon of Internet trolling. It was drawn by deviantArt user Whynne and uploaded to the site in 2008.

Thanks PPP. Now I get it. Yes I have seen that sort of thing. Now I'll know there is a name for it.

But most of the time due to its secretive nature,people tend to be overtly blunt..
if someone is studying to be concert pianist and submits a video for input
a member might think he or she is being cute by saying "don't quit your day job"
but might be devastating to the player, then arguments ensue,and its "I'm insulted!"
"pistols at dawn!" ..the internet has its pro's & cons..

There is almost nothing that is accomplished by what certain people euphemism as "bluntness" that can not be accomplished equally well with a modicum of concern for how the criticism will be perceived by the recipient.

There's an old saying "A gentleman never insults another unless it is on purpose". When someone is unpleasant or confrontational online that is a choice. It is not a limitation of the medium but simply the manner in which that person chooses to interact with others.