2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Who's Online Now
62 members (Charles Cohen, Beowulf, Carey, 3x4rt, anotherscott, BbAltered, 18 invisible), 398 guests, and 402 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Software Velocity Curve Settings - Need Advice
#1817496 01/03/12 12:05 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,323
M
1000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
1000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,323
I have no problems with the touch setting / velocity curves for hardware for various digital pianos, typically the default works, or one setting away from the default. I am able to play, and get a natural, balanced response, with no post recording editing required.

However, no matter what software piano I've tried, I cannot achieve satisfactory results. No matter what settings I try, the piano does not respond properly, and much post recording editing is required, which really kills the magic.

So, for example, right now I'm using the Roland RD-700NX as a controller, and am trying to get Ivory 2 (Steinway) to play naturally, properly. No luck.

Can anyone suggest what settings I should be using? Right now, Ivory 2 is not usable.

If I'm doomed to hardware only, that's fine, but I'm trying to give software one last shot, and am seeking advice, because it isn't happening for me. Not even close.

Thanks,

Lawrence

Re: Software Velocity Curve Settings - Need Advice
Melodialworks Music #1817499 01/03/12 12:09 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,552
G
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,552
RD700NX and Ivory II Steinway is a pretty common combo I think. Probably someone can send you their actual config file or at least a detailed description of their setting.

I don't use Ivory or a Roland, but when using a software piano my only velocity calibration is to either bow the curve out or bend it in. Actually, it's always to bow it out (there's a dial for that in Galaxy) and not by very much. These S-shaped curves and curves with sharp angles never seem very natural to me.

Re: Software Velocity Curve Settings - Need Advice
Melodialworks Music #1817521 01/03/12 12:28 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,424
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,424
Here's what I use with Galaxy ...

It's not as smooth as you'd expect, but I had to hand-draw the curve in the velocity editor.

Using the min/max/bend control, the editor only allow you to get a simple "bowed" curve ... not what I want. Also, you cannot get that "biased" high end, which I need because the Clavinova's velocity peaks at about 110.

Anyway, this works for me:

[Linked Image]

Re: Software Velocity Curve Settings - Need Advice
Melodialworks Music #1817553 01/03/12 01:12 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 95
B
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
B
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 95
Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
I have no problems with the touch setting / velocity curves for hardware for various digital pianos, typically the default works, or one setting away from the default. I am able to play, and get a natural, balanced response, with no post recording editing required.

However, no matter what software piano I've tried, I cannot achieve satisfactory results. No matter what settings I try, the piano does not respond properly, and much post recording editing is required, which really kills the magic.

So, for example, right now I'm using the Roland RD-700NX as a controller, and am trying to get Ivory 2 (Steinway) to play naturally, properly. No luck.

Can anyone suggest what settings I should be using? Right now, Ivory 2 is not usable.

If I'm doomed to hardware only, that's fine, but I'm trying to give software one last shot, and am seeking advice, because it isn't happening for me. Not even close.

Thanks,

Lawrence


Lawrence,

We find Ivory 2 to be quite usable, so I assume that you have just not found the right settings yet. I don't know whether you are a beginner or an expert, so please forgive me if my advice is not at the correct level.

First, please be aware that that your controller and Ivory both have velocity curve capability, so the way the sound engine responds will be the product of the two curves. For this reason it is important that one or the other device be set up for a 'linear' response to avoid unnecessary complication. By linear I mean that one device should be set up for a straight line response between the minimum velocity (0) and maximum value (127). Since you will be experimenting to find the 'best' response curve for your style of playing, it is generally more convenient to have Ivory set for the linear response (in the standalone Ivory, on the Session tab choose the 'Linear' response under Factory settings), and vary the response on the keyboard while you are playing the controller. Also, you may well find that the response curve needs to be modified for some music styles compared to others. Set the RD700 velocity curve for a linear response to begin with too. Then, try adjusting the curve to be slightly concave up ... play a little where you check out the response over the whole curve. Then try adjusting it slightly concave down and repeat. As you experiment you should discover a shape that works for you.

If you have someone to make adjustments on the computer while you play, you can set the RD700 to a linear curve and have them make small adjustments to the curve while you play. Once you discover what shape and how steep the curve needs to be for your playing, you can save the curve in your RD700 or reproduce it in Ivory and save it as a default there (remember to leave either the RD700 or Ivory velocity response linear).

We had our FP-7F set for a linear curve and use a default curve in Ivory of:


[list]
[*]Hardness: -40%
[*]Arc Type: Moderate
[*]Velocity Minimum: 0
[*]Velocity Maximum: 127

Good luck.


Regards,
Bob

NY Steinway A 1907, FP-7F wi RPU-3
HW: GA-X58A-UD3R, i7-930, 6GB & 2ea WD2002FAEX, 1ea WD1001FALS1TB, UA1000, Yamaha 2.1 HSM80M/HS10W, DPA SMK4061, Mackie LM3204
SW: Win7 Pro x64, Sonar PE 8.5.3, NI Komplete 8 Ult, Ivory Grand Pianos II
Re: Software Velocity Curve Settings - Need Advice
Melodialworks Music #1818043 01/03/12 09:17 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,323
M
1000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
1000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,323
Thanks for all of the suggestions. I've been working with both Ivory 2, and Galaxy Vintage D. Having more success with the Galaxy at the moment. I'll keep plugging away.

Lawrence

Last edited by Melodialworks Music; 01/03/12 09:18 PM.
Re: Software Velocity Curve Settings - Need Advice
Melodialworks Music #1818073 01/03/12 10:29 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 16
Z
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
Z
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 16
Do the other Ivory pianos work for you? I personally had no "touch" problems with any of them, except with the Steinway. I found it way too soft and mellow - no attack - at low velocities until I experimented with the "Power" arc type which allows you to define a velocity curve that is very steep at low velocities. On my clavinova, I set the hardness for the Steinway to +15%, maximum velocity to 115 and Silent Key to 4. Now it is my favorite instrument for classic repertoire, wonderful sound and much better sustain in the treble than the Italian Grand.

Andy


Yamaha CLP-380 PE
Re: Software Velocity Curve Settings - Need Advice
Melodialworks Music #1818109 01/03/12 11:42 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,323
M
1000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
1000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,323
Thanks, Zwetschge.

I've only been working with the Ivory 2 Steinway. I too was finding the soft velocities exactly as you described - too soft, mellow, no attack, would add muddy. You are correct that the "power" arc type is the one to correct this. (I somehow thought that 'power' would be related to rock, not a first choice for a New Age pianist!). I'm experimenting with the hardness setting, but it will definitely be a positive value. I'm still trying to get a smooth response, at various dynamic level, without any notes jumping out.


Re: Software Velocity Curve Settings - Need Advice
Melodialworks Music #1818213 01/04/12 06:39 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 286
E
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
E
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 286
Hello
I have similar problem with the couple MP6 - Ivory II
There is something I did not understand bbent said that both the controler and Ivory have velocity curve capabilities, but normally, only the velocity curve in ivory should be involved: the velocity from the controler should not interfere as the "midi" value of the key pressed should be transmitted as it is directly to the soft...

Am I wrong ?
do you have to also configure something on the controller (in this case, my MP6 piano) ?



Music is a lifestyle
(Happy Yamaha N2 and Roland FP90 owner)
Re: Software Velocity Curve Settings - Need Advice
enzo.sandrolini #1818226 01/04/12 07:41 AM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 351
G
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
G
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 351
Originally Posted by enzo.sandrolini
Hello
I have similar problem with the couple MP6 - Ivory II
There is something I did not understand bbent said that both the controler and Ivory have velocity curve capabilities, but normally, only the velocity curve in ivory should be involved: the velocity from the controler should not interfere as the "midi" value of the key pressed should be transmitted as it is directly to the soft...

Am I wrong ?
do you have to also configure something on the controller (in this case, my MP6 piano) ?



What he meant was the velocity curve of your controller and that of Ivory II could be battling each other. Imagine you have a concave curve in the MP6 and a convex one in Ivory. That would probably lead to strange results. At the very least the two would end up cancelling each other out.

Just make sure your MP6 is set to a linear curve and the full range of 0 - 127. It's usually called "touch sensitivty" or something and you get to choose from soft to heavy. Check in the manual which one is the linear one.

Re: Software Velocity Curve Settings - Need Advice
Melodialworks Music #1818232 01/04/12 08:16 AM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 549
B
bfb Offline
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
B
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 549
i use a straight linear curve for Ivory II and a Medium touch (default) setting for the vpiano as controller- i would assume the RD has similar touch control for its velocity curve...? this works fine for me, but i would also admit i prefer a softer sound/feel than probably the average player. on ivory 2 the Yamaha has a looser, harder feel, while the steinway feels like a softer keybed/hammer setup (which i prefer unless i'm playing rock style).

as an aside, every time i've monkeyed around with velocity settings i've wound up hating what i've done. i really think you need to neutralize them.


Steinway M; Roland V-Piano; Yamaha P250;
Ivory II Grands, Italian, American D; Galaxy Vintage D; True Keys American; UVI Yamaha C7; Ravenscroft 275; Garritan CFX
Re: Software Velocity Curve Settings - Need Advice
Gigantoad #1818284 01/04/12 10:25 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 286
E
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
E
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 286
Originally Posted by Gigantoad
Originally Posted by enzo.sandrolini
Hello
I have similar problem with the couple MP6 - Ivory II
There is something I did not understand bbent said that both the controler and Ivory have velocity curve capabilities, but normally, only the velocity curve in ivory should be involved: the velocity from the controler should not interfere as the "midi" value of the key pressed should be transmitted as it is directly to the soft...

Am I wrong ?
do you have to also configure something on the controller (in this case, my MP6 piano) ?



What he meant was the velocity curve of your controller and that of Ivory II could be battling each other. Imagine you have a concave curve in the MP6 and a convex one in Ivory. That would probably lead to strange results. At the very least the two would end up cancelling each other out.

Just make sure your MP6 is set to a linear curve and the full range of 0 - 127. It's usually called "touch sensitivty" or something and you get to choose from soft to heavy. Check in the manual which one is the linear one.

Ok, that is what I understood, but I thought that the controller would simply send to Ivory the level of "hardness" you basically stroke the key, without "applying" any velocity curves "computation" on the value sent to Ivory.
I mean: the velocity curves allows to apply a factor on the intensity you strike the key in order to produce the sound more or less loudly.
Therefore, this "interpretation" should not be made anymore by the controller as soon as you connect it to Ivory.
Ivory should take the "rough" value of the way you hit the key and make the interpretation...the "interpretation" of the controller should no more be involved.
Am I wrong ?


Music is a lifestyle
(Happy Yamaha N2 and Roland FP90 owner)
Re: Software Velocity Curve Settings - Need Advice
enzo.sandrolini #1818289 01/04/12 10:40 AM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 351
G
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
G
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 351
Originally Posted by enzo.sandrolini

Ok, that is what I understood, but I thought that the controller would simply send to Ivory the level of "hardness" you basically stroke the key, without "applying" any velocity curves "computation" on the value sent to Ivory.
I mean: the velocity curves allows to apply a factor on the intensity you strike the key in order to produce the sound more or less loudly.
Therefore, this "interpretation" should not be made anymore by the controller as soon as you connect it to Ivory.
Ivory should take the "rough" value of the way you hit the key and make the interpretation...the "interpretation" of the controller should no more be involved.
Am I wrong ?


Well the controller has to send velocity data through midi. If you modify the velocity curve on the controller then Ivory will already receive higher or lower velocity values and then on top of that factor in its own velocity settings.

Unless your controller somehow uses its own velocity curve for internal sounds only, which I doubt. Internally it's most likely set up the same way: midi data is generated and sent to the internal sound module. All that changes when you use an external instrument is that the midi data is redirected.

Last edited by Gigantoad; 01/04/12 10:41 AM.
Re: Software Velocity Curve Settings - Need Advice
Melodialworks Music #1834684 01/30/12 02:30 AM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 1
I
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
I
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 1
I'm using Ivory I with 700nx. The only way to get a usable sound is to set the key touch in the menu=>key touch setting to super light... But then the velocity is too heavy and still sometimes adjacent notes in quick runs would be of quite different velocities and the result is a sudden increase in volume. Not fun.

Is that consistent with everyone's experience with Ivory I? Is Ivory II better in this respect? Not sure whether to shell out the upgrade $$$, Ivory I was a huge disappointment for me...

In 700nx, I don't think there is a way to remap the velocities for each key. You can adjust the sensitivity and min/max velocities, but you cannot fine tune the response (eg map C4's velocity 80 to 60, 85 to 63, etc).

For that matter, I found a program called Velocity Curve by Trombetti that seems to do the remapping. Seems like some other program that adds virtual midi ports is needed (like midiyoke), in order to output from Velocity curve into this new port, and from this new port to Ivory. I'm going to try this setup in a couple of days.

Re: Software Velocity Curve Settings - Need Advice
Melodialworks Music #1872747 04/02/12 06:49 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 267
N
Full Member
Online Content
Full Member
N
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 267
I also am having difficulty with the Ivory II velocity and hardness settings—problems I don’t face with my keyboard’s internal sounds or with Truepianos.

My objectives are to match a grand’s feel and sound as closely as possible for live playback, chiefly for an audience of me. I’ve played acoustic grands my whole life, and the experience seems hardwired into my fingers and ears. I will concede the need to adjust my playing because of the need for keys on digital keyboards to bottom out in order to sound. I don’t want to compromise much more.

As a base to reach the objective I am using pretty upscale hardware: a 980x processor, 24 GB fast Ram, and the Ivory samples on a fast dedicated SSD. The digital sound goes through an optical link to a good external dsp and then to a dedicated Bryston amp and big 3-way speakers. I am using a Yamaha p-200 as a keyboard, usually with the internal velocity setting at ‘normal’ (linear). I get no noticeable latency using Ivory/Cantabile, and am very satisfied with the sounds Ivory II can produce.

But I am having quite a time trying to get Ivory’s velocity curve and hardness setting—and perhaps also the dynamic range setting—to mimic an acoustic grand. To keep the variables under control I am sticking with the “German Concert D” grand.

Here’s my problem—-no, there are several and unfortunately they interact with each other. So far, if I ‘fix’ one the others are off quite a bit:

1. In contrast to some others, I have no problem with the ‘mushy’ sound of the soft samples. However, I want to hear them ONLY with playing really softly. With a lot of settings variations these soft/mushy samples are also selected when I am playing at a moderate level, which is completely unacceptable. When I manage to fix this I find what others have complained of—of notes ‘popping out’ at normal to high velocities; more accurately, the velocity curve should require quite a lot more key velocity to produce a louder sound at normal to high volumes, but when I have harnessed the soft/mushy samples to p and pp I can’t quite manage the get the popping note issue fully under control.

The best I have done is:

moderate level playing not so mushy at all but not as clear as I would like, with very little popping out.

2. When I maximize the settings to address the two main issues in (1) as best I can the dynamic range of the piano seems greater than an acoustic grand from the player’s location.

The best I have come up with so for are these settings:
P-200 velocity: normal
Softest/loudest: 4 – 109 (the keyboard can produce 3-122, or so says Ivory)
Arc: mild
Hardness: +22%
Dynamic range: 36 dB

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.

Update, April 26th

Well, I have something to report on the 'popping out' issue that may be of interest to others. The physical noise made by my Yamaha P-200 keyboard when hitting the keys has been getting steadily louder over the years, to the point where I had to do something about it. The solution was to replace the felts the keyboard 'hammers' rest on and strike; oddly, it was the former--the ones the hammers return to rest on--that were making most of the noise. It was an easy repair and made a dramatic difference in noise. Why mention this? Because it significantly affected the keyboard's midi velocities. First, the maximal range as measured by Ivory II went down to perhaps 8-90. Second, and perhaps more relevant, I think the note to note consistency of response of the keyboard increased a lot. This more or less solved the popping out note issue for me. Perhaps this might be relevant to others.

On another front, I found it is quite easy to generate an S-shaped velocity curve outside Ivory, even if one cannot do so inside it. Cantabile, which comes with Ivory II, has a relevant "midi filter". Ableton Live has a velocity scaler that can do similarly, etc.

Last edited by NormB; 04/28/12 11:03 AM.
Re: Software Velocity Curve Settings - Need Advice
Melodialworks Music #1912024 06/11/12 06:33 PM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 4
S
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
S
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 4
Greetings,

I am a new user and was seeking information on the themes discussed here. At first I thought to start anew with my question, but I see that this theme has been covered.

I am a concert-pianist and composer, and have had a career for the most part in the "old school" sense, without using any electronic equipment...performing on acoustic pianos and composing with pencil and paper. Two projects, however, this year have required me to start quickly learning the world of music software and electronic keyboards. After a difficult search, my colleagues and I have decided to get Ivory 2 pianos. My question is about electronic keyboards:

I'm currently using the Casio Privia PX-130, only as a controller. It does not have an modulation wheel, and am looking for another keyboard that will have this mod wheel. More importantly, I'm looking for a keyboard that will be maximally sensitive—that is, capable of covering the fullest possible dynamic range in velocity. I don't understand the concept of a "velocity curve", and all the info I've been reading on the subject assumes a basic knowledge of this subject which I don't have at all. Trying to educate myself as much as possible. What reasonably-priced keyboard would any of you suggest that would cover the fullest possible range of touch, from ppp to ff?

Thank you in advance, and looking forward to absorbing some healthy information on this forum.

Re: Software Velocity Curve Settings - Need Advice
Melodialworks Music #1912034 06/11/12 06:52 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,237
V
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
V
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,237
Welcome, SoundArtist.

As it stands - apart from a handful of exotic instruments, all electronic keyboards conform to the MIDI standard when sending out controller signals. That is, they send velocity information ranging from the softest (#1 [sometimes #2, as #1 is reserved for silent play, to more closely emulate a non-striking piano hammer]) to the loudest (#127). Some keyboards fail to adequately transmit the full 1-127 range, falling short in the highest (fff) velocities. Keyboards can be tested with simple software, such as MIDI-OX, to see whether they send the full range.

Providing these controllers are capable of the full range, when working with piano software it's advisable to adjust the velocity curve to more accurately match the dynamics of the keyboard and the software, so as to gain an even gradation of ppp to fff.

As for modulation wheels coupled with high quality keyboard actions, please consider the following:
Yamaha CP33 ($1,000)
Kawai MP6 ($1,500)

Of the two, I would pick the Kawai for its top-notch action and good controller functions. There are others, but these two are a good place to start.


"you don't need to have been a rabbit in order to become a veterinarian"

mabraman, 2015
Re: Software Velocity Curve Settings - Need Advice
voxpops #1914462 06/16/12 10:47 AM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 4
S
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
S
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 4
Voxpops, thank you very much for the detailed information—very informative and helpful. Will have a look at your suggestions and let you know.


Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Karsten Collection
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
Our October 2020 Free Piano Newsletter is Here!
---------------------
3,000,000+!
------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Pianoteq and Disklavier XP
by bSharp(C)yclist - 10/30/20 01:30 PM
The problem of ear to hand
by John 656 - 10/30/20 01:25 PM
Bluthner upright pianos
by Starre - 10/30/20 12:49 PM
Tuning Pin Bushings Prevent Glue Seepage
by Duaner - 10/30/20 12:46 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics202,491
Posts3,018,761
Members99,068
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4