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Hey everyone, awesome forum.
I know this has been talked about on other threads so I am sorry if I am asking anyone to repeat their thoughts. Would just like some opinions about the AP sounds from the MP10 compared to those of the Nord piano. It would also be very helpful to note if the comparisons are based on solo (practice or performance), band or recording environments. The problem I am having is being able to compare them directly. Most of the stores in my area have the RD700NX, so I have been able test it extensively. I just drove about 45 min. to another store to try the Nord piano (they did not have the roland or the MP10). This coming monday I am driving in the opposite direction about 90 minutes to try the MP10. I will gladly share my thoughts and final decision when the adventure is over, but in the meantime I am going to throw down some Guinness for the holidays.
Peace to all.

EssBrace owns both, so he's your man

Thanks CyberGene, happy holidays!
EssBrace, I would be very grateful if you could share your thoughts (again, sorry if you have previously spent time on this issue).

My apologies to EssBrace for misspelling his nickname.

It's tough to compare the sound of things that aren't right next to each other... but it can be very helpful if you can record yourself playing the same stuff on each of the boards (perhaps direct out into a smartphone, for example), so you can at least compare how they sound after-the-fact.

Meanwhile, I've been amassing samples of all these pianos to try to put up on a website so people will be able to compare the sounds... hopefully I"ll get to that not too long after the first of the year.

anotherscott, are you doing a think like they did at purgatory creek, then? Running a standard midi through lots of different pianos? Let us know if you need help getting samples. I mean, I guess that's similar to what's done in the sticky DP midi playback comparison, but I'm always down for more such comparisons.

Yup. And I have quite a few already. But my idea for the site may be too ambitious, and I may scale back just to get something up there. What I really want to do is let people pick any two pianos from the list, and then listen to the MP3s unidentified, and then after they listen, they would be able to see which was which. But my web coding abilities are not terribly sophisticated!


Actually, there are some I'd like to get that I don't have... some of the Yamahas... CP1/5/50, Motif XF, S90/S70 XS and ES. Also Roland FP4, FP4F, FP7, FP7F. Any volunteers?

Hello Patrick

Yes, I own both and previously had a Roland RD-700GX with Supernatural upgrade board so I know where you are with these pianos. What I don't know is what your preferences are!

Anyway, I don't play in a band but I do record occasionally.

Kawai samples Kawai acoustics of course and all the pianos on the MP10 bar one were sampled during the same recording sessions I believe and are in fact the same piano. However Kawai are clearly not just EQ-ing one sample set. I think they have used alternative mic positions during sessions to create different voices and also I'm sure they will have used a piano tech to voice the piano differently to achieve a different feel across the various presets. There is one voice that is reputed to be the older MP8 piano voice (jazz grand No.3) and this is clearly quite different and in a technical sense very inferior, although it could have its uses in my opinion.

The Nord is just a world of pianos all in one box and in this sense is totally unique among hardware pianos. The pianos are very characterful and alive with personality, quirks and imperfections and in this sense it can sound very real. I would probably favour the Nord for recording. The Kawai's voice(s) are the equal of the various Nord voices and to my ears superior to a few of the Nord grands but if you don't much care for the Kawai's basic piano tone you would be a bit stuck.

I find the Kawai pretty bright and bold and actually slightly ragged here and there - it's a little bit like a less polished Yamaha sound in terms of brightness. Of course there is a whole lot of things you can do to the Kawai sounds but other than EQ-ing there is not what I would call a truly mellow piano on the MP10.

I find the Kawai very musical and enjoyable. The EPs on the Kawai are inferior to Nord but that doesn't mean to say it can't hold its head up against the Nord - it can. The first Rhodes type sounds great on the Kawai but has a really vicious velocity switch into the highest sample layer and is thus rather spoiled in my view. The two further Rhodes are very good indeed.

The Nord's EPs are the best in my opinion - loads of variety. They all sound good to me. Both Nord and Kawai are significantly better than the SN EPs in the Roland RD, which to my ears sound awful. There are others on the forum that have successfully tweaked them into a much improved state but frankly I can't be bothered with too much of that - out of the box the RD's EPs are dire in my view.

Both Kawai and Nord benefit from wonderfully intuitive user interfaces and again in this sense are easier to navigate than RD, although the Roland arguably does more than either Kawai or Nord and so it is perhaps understandable that it is a little more complicated and in any event it is not bad in this respect.

I haven't touched upon the Nord's upright pianos because they don't interest me at all and mine is set up without any uprights loaded. Of their type though they are really impressive - just overwhelmingly, genuinely creakingly authentic so if that kind of thing appeals there is no parallel at all, the Nord is one of a kind. Arguably the upright types are more applicable to some styles of contemporary music than the grands - but they are just not my cup of tea.

Ok, so for sounds the Nord wins but really only in the sense that there is more variety - a piano for most occasions. But purely in that kind of comparsion the Nord trumps everything out there. The Kawai MPs have often been somewhat maligned for lacking something in terms of piano tones but the MP10 is very good - if it has a voice that just hits the spot with you, you would be very very happy I think.

Now for the action - there is an unequivocal winner here and that is the Kawai. The MP10's wooden action is deliciously smooth and satisfying to use. I can't really imagine anyone not getting on with it. The Nord's action is its weak point but to write it off because of that would be a mistake. The Nord's action is quite alright. It is no barrier to expression or enjoyment in my opinion but it is entirely unremarkable in every sense bar one and that is that it somehow manages to allow a really great connection with the onboard sounds. In fact in this sense it might just be a tad more connected and dynamic than the Kawai but that is purely down to the implementation of the voices. In a tactile sense there is no comparison, the Kawai is better.

So to compare with the RD I would say if you are interested in recording the RD has a lot going for it. It's tone generation is the state of the art right now and it does not suffer from the common digital piano anomalies such as audible looping or audible velocity layers. This latter issue is not one that would really bother you on the Nord's or Kawai's acoustic piano voices either, but the looping in the decays are there, and audibly so on both. The Nord is better because it uses much longer loops. The Kawai has a Yamaha-like short loop and there is a curious behaviour on the Kawai that causes the sound to decay a little too quickly at first but it then just drones on at what sounds like the same level for ages and ages - at least as long as a real acoustic piano. In normal playing I would emphasise that this is not something that in any way compromises enjoyment of the thing.

The RD's action falls between the Nord and Kawai in terms of tactile pleasure I suppose but it has an advantage over both and that is that it is lightning quick and a very articulate, percussive and precise playing experience. Some might say it is a tad too light but as far as DP actions go it is one of the best. But I would say it feels like a sophisticated version of the Nord's action more than it feels like something akin to the Kawai's. The Kawai in my opinion is certainly superior to the RD but there would be room for personal preference to cause maybe two or three people out of ten to prefer the RD. I genuinely think no one would prefer the Nord's action to the Kawai's for acoustic piano playing.

For what it's worth I would (and did) choose either Nord or Kawai over the RD. There is something curiously aloof and uninvolving about the Roland's piano sounds to my ears.

Anyway, I've written enough for now! Let us know how you get on.

Good luck,

Steve

Well, that's a terrific overview - nice one Steve!

James
x

Ta!

That was a wonderfully insightful and articulate analysis, Steve. Thank you.

Having some experience of the NP and of both the Kawai MP and Roland SN pianos, I can concur with almost everything you said, although I have not had the pleasure of playing the RM3 action.


This brightness, which on the MP6 could become somewhat abrasive in the upper register, surprised me. Admittedly, it's many years since I've played a Kawai acoustic, but I remember a beautiful, warm tone that, yes, could be bright, but also had more mellow richness. Perhaps it was just the way that particular Kawai was set up. I think if the engineers could deal with the harshness and allow for more layers at lower velocities, the Kawai DPs could be even more expressive. Certainly, the actions warrant the finest possible sample reproduction.

I sold my MP6 this week to a couple with a young daughter. They wanted a piano for her to learn on. I tried to suggest they look for something less utilitarian-looking (and beat-up), but they were insistent. They had been advised that the Kawai action was the one to go for. I felt a pang of regret when the deed was done, as I had become very fond of that action. If Kawai can improve their sound reproduction to at least the level of SN, I for one will be back.


This is an interesting observation. What is Nord able to do with an inferior action that allows for a better connection with the sounds? I found exactly that issue with the MP6 - a very slight disconnect. However, the Nord's inability to allow for any sort of quick repetition drove the nail into the NP's coffin for me.

As for Roland and SN sounds, your use of the word "aloof" is a very apt term - I had to smile when I read it as it just summed the whole SN thing up so concisely. But for me, because the total SN AP package is so well integrated, I find I can live with that slight detachment more easily than with the small issues that beset the Nord and Kawai. I know you came to the opposite conclusion, and I can understand how, as the line that separates these DPs is a very fine one. I'm actually quite excited about what's just around the corner, as I think that we're getting quite close to the point where we won't have to train ourselves not to notice jarring artefacts or put up with mushy actions.

anotherscott, very interesting idea about recording the boards as I test them.

EssBrace, what a great review, very well stated (and helpful). Thank you.

What's making this DP selection interesting for me, is that right now I'm not quite sure how much recording or performing I will be doing this year. Certainly the board will be for late night practicing, Mond - Frid. after I help my daughter with her homework and then put her to bed.
Some of my limited impressions so far (pretty anticlimactic after EssBrace and voxpops insights)

RD700NX...listen to some personal recordings of a guy playing some rock and blues and it sounded great (but not a lot of personality in the sound). The transitions from soft to loud and vis versa were very smooth and expressive. However, when I listen to his band live, the piano had no character (to my ears anyway) and was lost, not really volume wise but sound wise if that makes any sense. I want to note that this was only from one gig and could have been the sound system. When I first played the NX, the action felt like, as others have notes 'bottoming out hard' or 'jarring'. However, I have been able to play this board several times and each time I seem to like the action a little more. Maybe the lack of good technique or control on my part was part of the problem in the biginning, because now I am starting to appreciate it. (edit: I hope I am not being to over-critical here because I do think this is a great board and may be a possibility for me.)

Nord Piano...This was a pretty funny introduction to the instument. When I was in the music store the sales person had advised me to not even bother with the Nord if I was looking for a serious DP (maybe he was just referring to the action? but he did not specify). I was really enamord with the idea of having access to pianos with a variety of tonal characteristics. Maybe because I was so interested in the Nord or beacause he advised me not to bother, it was the first board I tried. The action may be simple and may not be ideal for practicing or developing technique but it sure was a lot of fun to play. The 'playability,I'm using a word I am not quite sure how to descibe, was great on the Nord, at least for me. Tonal variety of pianos, this fun 'playability' thing, light weight, these are some of the things that put the Nord on my short list.

MP10...I have not had the chance to try one yet (or any of the MPs) but that will change this Monday.

Thanks all for your comments about my musings...



Yes indeed vox...and on and around that line for me would also be the Yamaha CP5. I would make a similar comment around the fact you'd have to like the Yamaha sound for it to work for you, but if you did like the sound it would be a really strong contender. I played one for the first time very recently and it is so non-fatiguing to play. Perhaps not the last word in techinque-building though due to it being somewhat on the light side. And you're right, the compromises are becoming smaller and smaller with pianos at this level. I'll whisper this in case Dewster's about, but we could call it....progress!



Patrick, the bottoming out hard business is mentioned by quite a few people new to the Roland actions. I'm ok with it. My Avant Grand with real grand action bottoms out hard(ish) I suppose - it's a very mechanical feel, which I like. You will find the MP10 the complete opposite - smooth is the word and the bottom of the key stroke is very cushioned - perhaps too much although when you get used to it it is very pleasant nonetheless.

Steve

Concerning late night practice with the Nord - the keys (at least on mine) make a very audible "thump" on return - if you're in the same room with a light sleeper the noise may be excessive. Of course, the noise is inaudible in any other setting. And - the AP's are really good, especially thru headphones.

Hey jazzonebyone, Hope you have a great holiday, thanks for comments, not something I had considered.
Before trying the Nord, which I really liked after I did, I was not very concered about
the weight of the board. I do not perform all that much, so the few times that I do, I could deal with the weight if I really liked the instrument. The weight of the nord is a plus because it makes this easier and as you have just brought to my attention, would be very easy to move to another room, with some headphones, if I needed to move or did not want to disturb anyone.

Steve,thanks for your thoughts about the RD700NX action. Something that is in the back of my mind is that my first or second impression of an action may not accurately depict want I would like after playing the board everyday for several weeks. For example, my current upright is an old yamaha that was given to me by a friend, a very light action that at first I didn't care for (but the piano was a free gift and I was very greatful). After about a month, I really began to connect with the piano and now I love it. So that may be happening with me, with regards to the NX action. The more I get to try it, the more I am adjusting to it and like the feel.