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..do any of the techs here service or tune the old square grands?
Any of you stay away from them completely because of the likelyhood of much going wrong in the process?
Piano Technician George Brown College /85 Niagara Region
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..do any of the techs here service or tune the old square grands?
Any of you stay away from them completely because of the likelyhood of much going wrong in the process? In 30 years tuning pianos I have never tuned a square grand and I don't plan to tune a square. There was a story that all of the square grands were gathered up in a central location in Canada and burnt. Too bad some got missed.
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I tuned one about 30 years ago. If I was asked to tune one now I would have to get the correct tip, but yeah, I'd tune it. I'd wear some kind of arm protection, though.
Jeff Deutschle Part-Time Tuner Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
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Some of those old overbuilt squares are alright if they have no history of neglect.
I have a history of being up for anything interesting. The last time I was asked to tune a square, I declined.
Amanda Reckonwith Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England. "in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
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I've only ever seen a few - in museums, historical stately homes, or - in one case, a customers house who was an avid collector of all things Victorian (& earlier).
I explained that if I were to start working on this piano, there was no telling where it would end!
ALL the parts were completely unique (& very brittle) the work could have gone on forever.
I politely declined.
John Schofield. NTC Dip. , C.G.L.I. Professional piano tuner/technician since 1982. myspace
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I restrung one and replaced the hammers as well about 26 years ago. The hammers were a bit challenging. I would say it was a real "learning experience." But, I'm still glad I did it.
Joe Gumbosky Piano Tuning & Repair www.morethanpianos.com (semi-retired) "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -Marcus Aurelius
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A year or two back I was in a large piano store that had a Knabe square grand for sale. The story is that the owner had the store re-build it. (I have a feeling it was sent to Poland for rebuild...) Then after a time the owner asked the store to sell it for him, for something like $30,000! It was beautiful to look at but difficult to listen to and ridiculous to play. I could not get ANY expression out of it. The action was so awkward and uneven. The store had been encouraging the owner to donate it to a museum or something because they could not sell it.
Jeff Deutschle Part-Time Tuner Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
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I have the rare request to tune such instruments .... mainly if an artist is performing and wishes to be totally authentic with Early keyboard music. I can only do the best I can with the tuning as they are normally so false! I carry oblong tuning levers as a matter of course ... but thankfully rarely have to use them. This surely begs a question though! If these early instruments were used as the norm by the past masters, how then, can people of today maintain that particular pieces of music should be played in a certain way .... as the master intended .... when the instruments were so bad by comparison to todays pianos ? I bet the musical greats of old would give their right hand to be able to play concert grands of today ... although perhaps playing one handed would be just as bad !! LOL
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That is one of the things I wonder about some of the unequal temperaments that people tout. If the old instruments had such sloppy tuning, it seems much more likely that any given temperament was used because it was easy to tune, rather than for any musical reason.
I moved one once in a previous life, a job much more awkward than tuning, and I could not tune one once. As I recall, it had oblong pins, and I did not have the adapter with me.
Semipro Tech
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Of course, it's easier to remove the dampers to tune them. So, your ear has to filter out all the overtones resonating from the other strings.
Joe Gumbosky Piano Tuning & Repair www.morethanpianos.com (semi-retired) "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -Marcus Aurelius
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Hey Emmery,
Which old square grand? The smaller 7 leg versions such as the John Tallman square or the larger 4 legged square popular in North America?
Either way these instruments all suffer from diagonal distortion; do not attempt to pull one of them up to A440.When tuning these you are vulnerable to injury in the tuning arm from breaking wire.
I think Rick Davies(RPD) does restorative work on these. You might want to email him. If you need his direct email send me one and I will copy you to him...
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That is one of the things I wonder about some of the unequal temperaments that people tout. If the old instruments had such sloppy tuning, it seems much more likely that any given temperament was used because it was easy to tune, rather than for any musical reason.
I moved one once in a previous life, a job much more awkward than tuning, and I could not tune one once. As I recall, it had oblong pins, and I did not have the adapter with me. And a heavily advertised UT is recommend for this same reason...
Jeff Deutschle Part-Time Tuner Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
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I get calls often to tune the old square grands. I have refused them all. My dad just told me never to accept tuning them because they are a PITA to tune and work on... So, I have always just said no.
Jerry Groot RPT Piano Technicians Guild Grand Rapids, Michigan www.grootpiano.comWe love to play BF2.
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I can easily agree with anyones point here. We have no-one who touches these here so I occasionally do it, (if it can be reasonably safely done) and charge appropriatly for the PITA factor. I rarely run into these here in my parts but two recently reared their heads at the same time. One I walked from after inspecting it, it was just too far gone. The other one I did some some ivory work, West epoxied the soundboard in two places, filled a light crack on the bridge, prepped the string contact points with CLP, and returned the next morning to tune. Customer was happy even though its tuned a semitone low. I had to explain to him that what he thought was UT on it, was actually the tubby sounding iron wound strings. Customer plays ET music on it (like 99.9% of people out there)so it got an ET tuning. It had been re-pinned fairly decently maybe 40 years ago with modern pins and I am lucky to have big long gorilla arms to reach them comfortably. I wear my archers' arm guard on my tuning forearm. Took my time carefully tuning it and broke no strings. Heres a pic of it (Heintzman & Co. Toronto/ numbers indicate it was one of the last years they were making them). I am thankful for Dan and several other techs input on these in some consultations I had. It is one of the benefits of keeping associations with like minded people who share their passion for breathing new life into pianos and are forthright in their opinions.
Piano Technician George Brown College /85 Niagara Region
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Well, good for you Emmery for being a person that does tune them. We need someone out there that is willing to do so. That way, some of them will get tuned anyway! Nice!
Jerry Groot RPT Piano Technicians Guild Grand Rapids, Michigan www.grootpiano.comWe love to play BF2.
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Now if he only vacuumed them out...
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I was obliged to tune one from the late 1700's a couple of years ago for a lecture demonstration at a festival where I was the resident tuner. It took a harpsichord oblong T-hammer. The lecture was about how serarated bass and treble dampers affected composition styles. (this piano had 2 sustain pedals, one for treble dampers and another for the bass. The break was between middle b and c). This was common in grands of the day so this instrument was convenient for the demonstration because he could transport it in the back of a station waggon. Since the occasion was not about tuning or pitch I was asked to just make it sound reasonable, it never stays in tune anyway.
Always up for a challenge I tuned it as solidly as such a flimsy construction would allow. Did it stay in tune? .... No. ....the tuning started to disintegrate as soon as the lights hit it just as he said it would but the lecture was fascinating.
To shed light on an earlier question, The great masters probably never used these pianos unless there was nothing else. Squares coexisted along with the grand pianos of the day, rather like the uprights of today coexist with modern grands. The introduction of the superior upright (including the birdcage!!!!) was responsible for the gradual demise of the square.
We know that the really great greats, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Liszt, etc. were given the personal use of grand pianos by Broadwood, Pleyel, Stein, Érard, etc. who would compete for attention just like present day product placement. The aristocracy and patrons for whom they worked had some of the most opulent grands by prominent makers but this is the subject of another thread.
Amanda Reckonwith Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England. "in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
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It took a harpsichord oblong T-hammer. Why Your used such a hammer? If possible a link to the photo hammer. Sincerely,maxim_tuner
Last edited by Maximillyan; 12/21/11 08:18 AM.
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This is a harpsichord tool Max, because this very old piano had very lightweight harpsichord-like stringing. There was a previous thread about 12 months ago that had a picture.
Look in an online catalog of specialist harpsichord tools the handle is about 3" and the stem about 4" with an oblong stot, not square or starshaped. It is all metal and traditionally held delicately betrween the thumb and the litte finger at oposite ends of the crossbar. The tuning pins this tool is intended for are harpsichord size with oblong heads (basically like a piece ot stout wire with one end hammered flat) except the stem that goes into the pinblock is ever so slightly cone-shaped. If one was loose it could be used like hammer to very lightly tap the pin in. Hence the term tuning hammer still used even for the lever shaped ones that cannot be used as a hammer. (well, they can if you really really want to).
Thanks for the question.
I think that It was through the necessity to also learn harpsichord tuning as part of my first professional piano tuning job that I really learned the technique to set pins. In a piano it takes greater strength or a lever but the levels of delicacy, control and feel are no different.
Amanda Reckonwith Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England. "in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
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...If one was loose it could be used like hammer to very lightly tap the pin in. Hence the term tuning hammer still used even for the lever shaped ones that cannot be used as a hammer. (well, they can if you really really want to)...
I've always wondered why that term "hammer". Thanks for answering that.
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
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Piano
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