Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Who's Online Now
148 registered members (AnnInMiami, anotherscott, akc42, ArturC, alexk3954, AaronSF, Anna123, almo82, Amedeus, 35 invisible), 1,921 guests, and 4 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 58 of 75 1 2 56 57 58 59 60 74 75
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1807944
12/18/11 05:16 AM
12/18/11 05:16 AM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 246
france
Z
zack! Offline
Full Member
zack!  Offline
Full Member
Z

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 246
france
Originally Posted by dewster

2. In something with loops as short as the AG, harmonic pan movement really isn't possible without audibly revealing the looping cycle. So they squash it by over processing the loops, but end up throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Yes, I agree, to ensure continuity when hearing, they need to flatten the variation of 1)amplitudes and 2)directions of harmonics. It should be quite difficult to make a "seamless pasting", considering the 2 dimensions of the problem... Probably a painful random bricolage, ending with a massively processed sound more easy to paste...

This picture is for me the confirmation that the "physical presence of sound", is still different between AP and DP. Spatialization of sound (both during recording, and playing) is really important, to capture liveliness and depth of a tone (the harmonics "swing" and roll in the box). Other point is filtering low and high frequencies is also limiting the perception of vibrations of the piano by our body...

Piano & Music Gifts & Accessories (570)
Piano accessories and music gift items
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: zack!] #1808476
12/19/11 03:59 AM
12/19/11 03:59 AM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 246
france
Z
zack! Offline
Full Member
zack!  Offline
Full Member
Z

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 246
france
dewster,

Do you have some pan view of a note played on an accoustic piano ? I am very interested to compare, with DP samples. This stereo panning is really intriguing for me.

Do you know where it comes from, it is a slow directional sound motion with back and force, nothing that can come from a reverb, so seems to be a mobile sound source : sound board ?

For me this is the vibration of the sound board inited at oscillting string fix point, and making wave in the sound board. Correct ?


Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: zack!] #1808561
12/19/11 11:41 AM
12/19/11 11:41 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member
dewster  Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
Originally Posted by zack!
Do you have some pan view of a note played on an accoustic piano ? I am very interested to compare, with DP samples. This stereo panning is really intriguing for me.

I previously did a comparison between Roland SN, Kawai UPHI, and a fully sampled Yamaha C7 from VintAudio here.

Originally Posted by zack!
Do you know where it comes from, it is a slow directional sound motion with back and force, nothing that can come from a reverb, so seems to be a mobile sound source : sound board ?

I believe the slow, rather random pan is mostly from having three unison strings tuned slightly differently beating together in close proximity to each other on the soundboard. Some of it could also be the primary modes of excitation rotating around the axis of the string. I haven't extensively researched what causes this but it is certainly there on a real piano and short loops understandably kill it every time.

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1808669
12/19/11 03:18 PM
12/19/11 03:18 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 246
france
Z
zack! Offline
Full Member
zack!  Offline
Full Member
Z

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 246
france
Originally Posted by dewster

I previously did a comparison between Roland SN, Kawai UPHI, and a fully sampled Yamaha C7 from VintAudio here.

Thanks, perfect thumb
Originally Posted by dewster

I believe the slow, rather random pan is mostly from having three unison strings tuned slightly differently beating together in close proximity to each other on the soundboard. Some of it could also be the primary modes of excitation rotating around the axis of the string.

Dewster, I am lost... f
Please try again (differently wink ), I really want to understand that...

Last edited by zack!; 12/19/11 03:19 PM.
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1809360
12/20/11 04:47 PM
12/20/11 04:47 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 246
france
Z
zack! Offline
Full Member
zack!  Offline
Full Member
Z

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 246
france
Perhaps slow traveling mode (emerging from quick stationary modes) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMXlzCX5gio

Or what about stationary vibrating modes drifting or being instable (between 2 modes) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtiSCBXbHAg&feature=related

Look a this increadible cimatics example with human voice :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KU84ckD1AcA&feature=related

Last edited by zack!; 12/20/11 05:01 PM.
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: zack!] #1809394
12/20/11 05:22 PM
12/20/11 05:22 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member
dewster  Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
Originally Posted by zack!
Originally Posted by dewster

I believe the slow, rather random pan is mostly from having three unison strings tuned slightly differently beating together in close proximity to each other on the soundboard. Some of it could also be the primary modes of excitation rotating around the axis of the string.

Dewster, I am lost... f
Please try again (differently wink ), I really want to understand that...

When you play a note on a piano, except for the lowest bass notes, the hammer hits more than one string. Most notes in fact have three strings. These strings are tuned almost exactly the same, but the slight difference produces a slow moderate phasing sound.

Another thing that might cause this phasing is the direction the strings are vibrating. On a grand piano the hammer hits the strings vertically, but during the decay I think the vibrations can slowly rotate around to horizontal and back again to vertical.

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1809426
12/20/11 05:59 PM
12/20/11 05:59 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 246
france
Z
zack! Offline
Full Member
zack!  Offline
Full Member
Z

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 246
france
Thanks

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1809485
12/20/11 07:06 PM
12/20/11 07:06 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 246
france
Z
zack! Offline
Full Member
zack!  Offline
Full Member
Z

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 246
france
dewster,

Phasing sound is a "new" sound, with its own lower frequency.

In your pan view, all the curves are moving. If it were phasing sound, as 1 note is played (max 2 strings vibrating), at most one or 2 phasing sounds could appear and slide. Or, all harmonics will generate there own phasing sound. But even in that case, some curves should remain static (that is at least 2 statics harmonics for 1 phasing sound).

Other thing that is strange, the moving frequencies change of direction (inflexion) in random area. I am not sure a phasing sound can do that.

Actually eitheir moving wave reverb (or not) against the edge of the soundboard, or at against soundboard barriers. Probably barriers are like guide for "almost"stationary modes (like guide for chaldni nodes in guitar sounboard). Or this "quasi" nodes moves really "randomly"...

I don't know, I don't understand...

Last edited by zack!; 12/20/11 07:09 PM.
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1809665
12/21/11 12:12 AM
12/21/11 12:12 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member
dewster  Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
When you add together three sine waves with slightly different frequencies, the result can be a somewhat random looking wave. This is essentially what's going on with the piano notes: their stereo harmonics sum together to make new harmonics with a somewhat random stereo image. This harmonic sum appears as a single line in the spectral pan view, drifting up and down in the stereo field. I'm sure some coupling is going on through the soundboard as well. It's all rather complex in real life, which is why it's probably best just to sample this stuff than to simulate it.

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1809779
12/21/11 04:39 AM
12/21/11 04:39 AM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 246
france
Z
zack! Offline
Full Member
zack!  Offline
Full Member
Z

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 246
france
I think I understand a little bit more.

I imagine the 3 strings vibrating at almost the same frequencies, and almost the same phase, coming for almost the same place.

All these sources (without considering coupling for the moment), generates waves in the sound board (either starting from a point or a segment, depending of the rigidity of the chevalet (where string are fixed), so circular waves from spot, or transerval waves from segment.

These is true for all 3 fundamental waves, and all 3 waves per harmonics transmitted by string (not considering sound board is an "active" transmitter, and may modify waves (take more energy for some, re-create new upper harmonics, etc).

All these waves are moving 5000m/s in sound board, rebounding (reverbing) against edge, then as edge are not regular, all these echoes supperpose together.

We have then complex interference pattern beating, increasing amplitude in some place, decreasing in another place, and probably, these patterns (with high up front), still beating at harmonic frequency, due to slight phasing effects, can begin to drift a little (1m per second or so) in random direction in the sound board, in the beating mesh, creating stereophonic effect...

Is that description correct ?

PS : I want to understand how complex is the modeling of sound board...

Regards




Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: zack!] #1809783
12/21/11 04:44 AM
12/21/11 04:44 AM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 246
france
Z
zack! Offline
Full Member
zack!  Offline
Full Member
Z

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 246
france
And sometimes, for certain frequencies, all interference pattern (or at leat for fondamental) stabilize/synchronize together, and we get a chaldny stationary mode ?

Still correct ?

Re: The DP BSD Project! - Kawai CS9 Vs CA63 [Re: dewster] #1893941
05/09/12 04:20 AM
05/09/12 04:20 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 14
London, England
D
danielragostar Offline
Junior Member
danielragostar  Offline
Junior Member
D

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 14
London, England
I'm looking seriously at the Kawai CS9 which also has UPHI - is this going to be exactly the same results in terms of Attack sample length as the CA63 test you have done? Slightly dissapointing if so as the Avant Grand is a few seconds better for most of them frown Please let us know.

Kind Regards,
Allan smile


Roland HP-307
FP-4F
RD700NX (if i can get it sounding right!)
Re: The DP BSD Project! - Kawai CS9 Vs CA63 [Re: danielragostar] #1894110
05/09/12 11:40 AM
05/09/12 11:40 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member
dewster  Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
Originally Posted by danielragostar
I'm looking seriously at the Kawai CS9 which also has UPHI - is this going to be exactly the same results in terms of Attack sample length as the CA63 test you have done?

Good question. If you can get near one long enough to render the DPBSD MIDI to MP3 to I'd be able to tell you. From the manual:

http://www.kawai.co.jp/worldwide/support/manuals/pdf/CS9_EN_20110613.pdf

Page 45 describes how to convert a MIDI file to an MP3. All you need is a thumb drive with the DPBSD MIDI file on it. Kawais generally have quite nice stand-alone rendering abilities, kudos to them for that.

Originally Posted by danielragostar
Slightly dissapointing if so as the Avant Grand is a few seconds better for most of them frown

The DPBSD testing for me has been one long trail of tears with only a few bright spots here and there. The products seem to be improving, but so slowly only a turtle or a great sequoia might notice. We haven't quite reached the "big shakeup" in the DP market (when unlooped & unstretched high-end models will be the norm). As with all computing equipment, if you can afford to wait you can likely get more for less later.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1894170
05/09/12 01:20 PM
05/09/12 01:20 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9
Saint-Petersburg, Russia
G
galaksa Offline
Junior Member
galaksa  Offline
Junior Member
G

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9
Saint-Petersburg, Russia
2 dewster
Just have seen your begging section.
Well, I have LIMEX Vienna Grand Piano expansion board. And I'll try to post here the result mp3. I am sure the expansion board has the same chipset as the piano module.
Just two words: ATSAM9708 + 256MB + 3xPCM1754 + AL3201B. No magic.

Last edited by galaksa; 05/09/12 04:17 PM.
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1894606
05/10/12 06:46 AM
05/10/12 06:46 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 966
R
R_B Offline
500 Post Club Member
R_B  Offline
500 Post Club Member
R

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 966
Originally Posted by dewster

Another thing that might cause this phasing is the direction the strings are vibrating. On a grand piano the hammer hits the strings vertically, but during the decay I think the vibrations can slowly rotate around to horizontal and back again to vertical.


SOMEWHERE there are some slow mo movies of this.
The closest description I can offer is that it is somewhat similar to the motion that I have seen in a skip rope when a child at one end swings it in a circle.
Not really a "traveling screw" wave motion, but certainly more than merely vertical.
As I recall the explanation given was that the initial vertical motion "collides" with sound energy from the soundboard, which deflects the string vibrations, resulting in some horizontal component.

This was a long time ago, the details escape me, it may still be found with a well crafted search (-:

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: galaksa] #1894834
05/10/12 03:13 PM
05/10/12 03:13 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member
dewster  Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
Originally Posted by galaksa
Well, I have LIMEX Vienna Grand Piano expansion board. And I'll try to post here the result mp3. I am sure the expansion board has the same chipset as the piano module.
Just two words: ATSAM9708 + 256MB + 3xPCM1754 + AL3201B. No magic.

Hokey-smokes, I had no idea anything like the ATSAM9708 (dual DSP / GPU to support 128 polyphony + effects) even existed outside of the proprietary realm, thanks for that! The AL3201B (digital reverb engine) is also a very interesting part.

I'll gladly take your MP3 whenever you might be able to provide it.

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1894866
05/10/12 04:15 PM
05/10/12 04:15 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9
Saint-Petersburg, Russia
G
galaksa Offline
Junior Member
galaksa  Offline
Junior Member
G

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9
Saint-Petersburg, Russia
The thing that really put me in a confusion is a 2$ DAC onboard. It spoils all the impression here, don't you think so? When it comes to a compact layout, AD1854 of my RP-X takes a slightly more space.

Last edited by galaksa; 05/12/12 05:56 AM.
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: galaksa] #1895684
05/12/12 09:49 AM
05/12/12 09:49 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member
dewster  Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
Originally Posted by galaksa
The thing that really put me in a confusion is a 2$ DAC onboard. It spoils all the impression here, don't you think so? When it comes to a compact layout, AD1854 of my RP-X takes a slightly more space.

The PCM1754 looks nice enough on paper. Certainly DACs these days are lightyears ahead of what we had just a decade or so ago, and with DACs showing up in literally everything price may not necessarily be a good indication of performance. Beyond hearing some aliasing when trying to reproduce high frequency, high amplitude sine waves with my old PC sound card, I can't say I've ever directly experienced a "bad" DAC. Perhaps I'm not able to hear it for some reason, or the opportunity just hasn't presented itself?

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1895688
05/12/12 09:55 AM
05/12/12 09:55 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,163
Sydney, Australia
S
sullivang Offline
3000 Post Club Member
sullivang  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
S

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,163
Sydney, Australia
It's been said that the very worst DAC is better than the very best speaker. wink

Greg.

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: sullivang] #1895766
05/12/12 01:57 PM
05/12/12 01:57 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member
dewster  Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
Originally Posted by sullivang
It's been said that the very worst DAC is better than the very best speaker. wink

Absolutely. Though it's kind of amazing speakers have been refined to the point they are currently. Who'd think a piece of paper set in motion by an electromagnet and placed in a box could sound so good?

The most likely limiter of magic on the LIMEX Vienna Grand Piano expansion board magic is this: 256MB

Page 58 of 75 1 2 56 57 58 59 60 74 75

Moderated by  Piano World 

Shop Our Online Store!
Shop Our Store Online
Shop PianoSupplies.com

Did you know Piano World has an online store, and that it's loaded with goodies pianists and music lovers want?
Check it out and place your order.

Special Purchase!
Keyboard and Roses Piano Bench Cushion Keyboard & Roses 14"x30" piano bench cushions Regularly sold for $79 to $100, now only $39. (while supplies last)

(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Bechstein
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways
New Topics - Multiple Forums
For your listening pleasure
by joyoussong. 06/17/19 04:24 PM
Thoughts about difficulty rating
by Ganddalf. 06/17/19 04:03 PM
1929 Knabe Ampico Player Albert Einstein
by Milehipo. 06/17/19 03:48 PM
My Best Piano VSTs
by Keunyoung Song. 06/17/19 03:23 PM
What's Hot!!
PIANO TEACHERS Please read this!
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics192,572
Posts2,838,897
Members93,634
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1