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I understand that "new hand made" pianos like S&S do not really develop their true tone or voice for several years.(apart from the normal compacting of the hammer felt) Is this true for a piano 100 years old that has just been COMPLETELY rebuilt?
Playing piano at age 2, it was thought that I was some sort of idiot-savant. As it turns out, I'm just an idiot.
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Originally posted by fingers: I understand that "new hand made" pianos like S&S do not really develop their true tone or voice for several years.(apart from the normal compacting of the hammer felt) Is this true for a piano 100 years old that has just been COMPLETELY rebuilt? A crowned spruce soundboard is resisting the the downward force exerted by steel strings within the confines of a rigid rim. It's bound to yield somewhat to those stresses when it's new and that should change the sound somewhat. But if the new soundboard doesn't sound good right away, don't expect it to magically change into something great in a few years. As far as hammer felt goes, S&S has a reputation for soft hammers that can take years to brighten if they aren't lacquered.
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Well, this post brings up a point. One of the rebuilt S&S I played was quite nice, then about the same time both my husband and I noticed that the bass was kinda "not there" - that is, it just didn't have the strength of the rest of the mid and upper octaves of the piano. When we asked the piano dealer about this, he said it was a fresh rebuild and needed time to play in.
That may be well and true. It's great if someone has the experience with rebuilt pianos to know this will occur, but I could never buy a piano that doesn't have the sound I'm looking for on the assumption that it's going to change.
With regards to new pianos playing in, Dan M apparently has much more faith than I do. He purchased a new CW with the expectation it is going to play in and sound better than when he bought it - and it seems to be working out - hence his recent post.
I wonder how many consumers can buy a piano that way?
Jeanne W
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I wonder how many consumers can buy a piano that way? Actually, the more experienced the pianist is with playing many pianos and how they will react to voicing and play, the easier it is for them to choose a piano. These folks tend not to look for "perfection", but an instrument they feel comfortable working with. That is not to say that they would choose a piano they don't like, it is just that they understand what it takes to make a piano "perfect" for them and they understand that this will be have to be done occasionally to keep the piano there. I hope this helps,
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Originally posted by Jeanne W: both my husband and I noticed that the bass was kinda "not there" - that is, it just didn't have the strength of the rest of the mid and upper octaves of the piano. When we asked the piano dealer about this, he said it was a fresh rebuild and needed time to play in.
Jeanne, That's where your independent technician comes in, I think. If you were otherwise serious about this piano, that is. It happened to me with my M&H. The bass was great when I saw it, the upper 2/3 dead, so I was underwhelmed. My inspecting tech looked it all over, and said there's no reason it shouldn't sound great across the range, once the hammers are worked on. That opinion, plus the M&H and rebuilder's reputation, helped me decide to buy.
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A piano will gradually change in tone throughout it's life. I don't swallow the idea that you can freeze a moment in it's life and claim that is the "true sound" of the instrument.
However one concept that I think is fairly significant- brand new strings usually have quite a few upper harmonics coming off them, most notably in the bass section. Sometimes I would consider it somewhat overwhelming or metallic. Over the next couple years they tone down somewhat into what I would consider a more balanced harmonic signature.
Of course that's not just Steinway, and it's not the only tonal change that will occur.
Regards,
Rick Clark
Rick Clark
Piano tuner-technician
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I guess the thing about the bass that scared me off is we had not noticed this in any other rebuilt S&S I had played. Also, I've found it much more common that the treble areas of pianos can be a tad weak. I have not noticed a weak bass in many other pianos I've played. Certainly nothing as evident as in that piano. That led me to question if the weak bass could actually be an inherent characteristic of that particular piano, rather than a matter of something that would improve after playing in over time.
I think the ideal "buy" is a piano that is about 2 years old, has been voiced, well maintained and played in. Then you have a really know what you are getting. But there aren't too many opportunities to buy a piano this way.
Jeanne W
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Jeanne,
A freshly rebuilt quality piano, such as a Steinway, if done properly, should sound strong in the bass and strong in the treble. It should compare favorably with the absolute best examples of the comparably sized new version of the same piano. It will also continue to get better as it is played and worked on.
The metalic sound Rick Clark is describing in new strings, especially in the bass, IMO, is indicative of either lower quality strings, a problem in the stringing itself, or something else that needs attention.
In the case of a freshly rebuilt piano, or a new piano, if it doesn't have a strong tone throughout all registers, it is probably a mistake to assume it will develop one over time.
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If you are seriously considering the S&S, I would explain my concerns to the dealer/rebuilder. Offer to buy the piano IF the entire instrument can be voiced to your satisfaction.
Piano Industry Consultant
Co-author (with Larry Fine) of Practical Piano Valuation www.jasonsmc@msn.com
Contributing Editor & Consultant - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer
Retired owned of Jasons Music Center Maryland/DC/No. VA Family Owned and Operated Since 1937.
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"I understand that "new hand made" pianos like S&S do not really develop their true tone or voice for several years.(apart from the normal compacting of the hammer felt) Is this true for a piano 100 years old that has just been COMPLETELY rebuilt?" fingers, "Apart from the normal compacting of the hammer felt", I would say it’s not true. Compacting of hammer felt, especially on the softer hammers, is what, IMO, people are getting at when they say a piano is "finding its voice". As long as extra tunings are taking place to stay ahead of the settling stings, and possibly brand new soundboard, I would bet there really isn't anything else to look forward to with regard to how that piano is going to develop. Also realize how different the piano can sound in the hands of different technicians. I believe, perhaps more than others, that B's and O's (Edit;among themselves) can be made to sound substantially alike provided you can reverse engineer how they got to where they are. So, its not so much one rebuilt piano's inherent capabilities or personality as it is the parts and people going into making/re-making it. Just my view. My B's bass goes away noticeably at 30-32%RH, where I'd expect newer boards, or ones that had better care in the first years of their life, to perform better. Along with RH, I'd suspect poor regulation, low hammer weight, soft hammers (in which case the treble should also be pretty dead), or a flat board (low bearing). I guess that is a lot of things to investigate, but that is why we suggest including a tech in your search. Its a tiny fraction of the cost in the dodgy S&S market. Chris
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Chris,
I agree with much of what you say, but rather than suspect low hammer weight, I would say incorrect hammer weight, and rather than suspect low bearing, I would say incorrect bearing. I would also suspect the design of the soundboard and ribs. Even the most expert voicing will not overcome problems in these areas.
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A few years ago, Franz Mohr, tuner/tech for Horowitz told a group of us that a new piano's tone could not be determined until it settled in over several years. He said this is true for All well made hand built pianos such as S&S. He thought the changes over time were not subtle. With respect to my M&H BB purchased new about 10 years ago, I really can't say for sure. It has been voiced several times and moved just as many. Has the tone changed over time? Yes. Could it be due to a combination of things? Probably. I may be way off, but I think that the Sound of tone is related but different from the Presentation of tone. For example, a piano may brighten or darken over time but it's ability to sing or notes to swell is either there or not. I do know one thing. There are many aspects of tone that I am still unaware of.
Playing piano at age 2, it was thought that I was some sort of idiot-savant. As it turns out, I'm just an idiot.
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Fingers,
I agree that a piano's tone changes over time. What I am trying to say is that a brand new or freshly rebuilt piano should sound great. It is regularly suggested that it is normal to wait several years for a piano to sound good. I say if it doesn't sound good now, don't buy it hoping it will one day.
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For example, a piano may brighten or darken over time but it's ability to sing or notes to swell is either there or not.
Fingers, thank you for saying this. I have been been thinking about this for awhile but did not have the language or knowledge to even articulate the question. If you can say more about this I would appreciate it.
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All pianos change over time. I would say that the sound changes a bit more on a rebuild with a new soundboard than on one with the original board. With this being said, a well rebuilt Steinway that has been properly prepped should sound great with out having to be broken in. A good piano should sound better and better with age, to a certain point, but if the piano is a dog, no break in will solve that. Don't buy a piano you dislike just because some salesman tells you that it just needs to break in.
John Ruggero Ruggero Piano Raleigh, NC A technician based, distributer of fine pianos including Boesendorfer,Fazioli, Mason and Hamlin, Schimmel, Charles R. Walter, Estonia, and Falcone www.ruggeropiano.com
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Originally posted by tordu: For example, a piano may brighten or darken over time but it's ability to sing or notes to swell is either there or not.
Fingers, thank you for saying this. I have been been thinking about this for awhile but did not have the language or knowledge to even articulate the question. If you can say more about this I would appreciate it.
Playing piano at age 2, it was thought that I was some sort of idiot-savant. As it turns out, I'm just an idiot.
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I ran into the same situation today.
The dealer showed me a few 1950s Steinway M's, an 1920s 6'4" A and a 1950s Mason & Hamlin A. They were all not impressive. All sounded small and the bass was very weak. As far as I remember, they were not rebuilt, just having the pinblock, bass strings, action changed and the case touched up. The soundboards were reconditioned.
I questioned why the bass was that weak, lacking that "growl", for the S&S A, as compared to my previous experiences with the same model but older and worn out.
The tech said he can harden the hammers, change the strike point (if I remember it corretly)... etc. to make it sounds to my liking.
I wonder how much they could do and how much difference would that result.
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Originally posted by tordu: For example, a piano may brighten or darken over time but it's ability to sing or notes to swell is either there or not.
Fingers, thank you for saying this. I have been been thinking about this for awhile but did not have the language or knowledge to even articulate the question. If you can say more about this I would appreciate it. I am no expert but I have been giving this much thought. Here it goes... Our perception of tone consists of several elements (1)sound color (2)the way the sound color projects, over time, through the air. By "sound color" I mean characteristics such as: twangy, nasal, rich, thin, etc. By "projection" I mean the manner in which that "sound color", be it nasal or whatever, reaches our ears. It may develop slowly, expand, and bloom; or it may jump out quickly and uniformly only to disolve away just as it arrived. Good pianists are aware of this and can,by their touch, manipulate this to a certain degree. We have all heard great pianists "sing" on clunkers. They have to work differently of course, to achieve their desired tonal projection than with a piano that does it more naturally. For example, I have a M&H BB with a very deep, rich sound color. My teacher has a S&S B with a much thinner sound color. His piano's sound color greatly expands over time while mine does too, but to a much lesser extent. It is the initial immense richness(sound color) of the Mason that grabs one's ears, and it is the secondary bloom(sound projection) or expansion that differentiates the Steinway. Again, I am not claiming this as fact. It is only my opinion and we all know what opinions are like.
Playing piano at age 2, it was thought that I was some sort of idiot-savant. As it turns out, I'm just an idiot.
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Originally posted by Jeanne W: Well, this post brings up a point. One of the rebuilt S&S I played was quite nice, then about the same time both my husband and I noticed that the bass was kinda "not there" - that is, it just didn't have the strength of the rest of the mid and upper octaves of the piano. When we asked the piano dealer about this, he said it was a fresh rebuild and needed time to play in.
I'm struggeling with a restored 1930's A for more than a week.I have somethig as an octave in the treble and the first fifth in the basses that does not sing.The rest is great.He will not get out of the workshop to the store until it's done.And that even if I have to recognise that I can't do better and I have to pay a concurent to do it(hope not ) If You have a good or great sound,You can (& You must)have it on the whole scale from the begining I will not permit myself to say "it will come with time".It is not quit honnest and keith,I think hammer weight is exactly my problem:I put (just curiosity)the treble hammers an octave lower:my dead part started to sing.Didn't thought at that.Thanks
lucian "more I learn,less I know" piano tuner/technician (sort of..... )
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Just to throw in my experience: I've had a few rebuilt Steinways & Bechsteins and I find that I'm often underwhelmed by how they sound at first but after a few weeks of occasional playing (totalling only a handful of hours) the tone gets better - more mature, and before too long I'm overwhelmed instead of underwhelmed
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