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Re: Is there anyone out there who still uses manuscript???? [Re: Froglegs] #1744316
09/01/11 06:51 AM
09/01/11 06:51 AM
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London, UK
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kevinb Offline
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Originally Posted by Froglegs
Originally Posted by MadForBrad

As for the importance of knowing from experience how things will sound I agree with you there. I have no problem hearing melodies in my head and notating them, it's when determining complex harmony and counterpoint that the piano becomes important for me.

I never have problems with tearing counterpoint in my head and notating it down.


Lucky for you.

But you still haven't answered my question:

What does it matter to you how I choose to work? Would it be OK, do you think, for someone to come to your place of work and express contempt for your methodology? Just wondering.

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Re: Is there anyone out there who still uses manuscript???? [Re: Froglegs] #1747205
09/05/11 11:34 PM
09/05/11 11:34 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 357
Los Angeles, CA
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J Cortese Offline
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I've written at the piano and away from the piano both. I do find that, like the laptop keyboard, I write best when I'm noodling with ideas in my head all day long, even at work, and then get home and dump it all out into the piano.

I don't find it useful to just sit in front of the piano and try to have an idea then and there. Ideas tend to come when they want, on their own schedule, and if one hits me in the middle of a boring meeting at work, then that's when it hits. I find that I am constantly fiddling with bits of music in my head, filling up my idea tank, and then I get home and empty it out into the piano. But the tank should ideally be filling in the background all day.

I have fumbled things and turned them into pieces, though. I'm working on one right now the coda for which I got by flubbing the end of the intro for an aria by Haendel. It moved from DM to D mixolydian, and now it's a totally separate piece. So writing at the piano works too, it's just that it can be a bit dicey to sit there and go, "Okay, I'm ready for an idea now!" They come when they want to, and it's not always when I'm ready to play it and write it down. :-P


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Re: Is there anyone out there who still uses manuscript???? [Re: Froglegs] #1786223
11/10/11 06:00 AM
11/10/11 06:00 AM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 105
Melbourne, Australia
Froglegs Offline OP
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Wow I haven't been here for a while!


"There is nothing greater than the joy of composing something oneself and then listening to it."
- Clara Schumann
Re: Is there anyone out there who still uses manuscript???? [Re: Froglegs] #1792401
11/20/11 01:04 AM
11/20/11 01:04 AM
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Saskatchewan, Canada
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gsmonks Offline
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For me it depends on the complexity of the music. Something basic goes directly to Sibelius. Something I'm going to sweat over goes to manuscript.

The problem with computer notation it that the process is far too slow. Part of it is that I've developed a system of shorthand over the years. Part of it, also, is that notation programmes go in only one direction, whereas with manuscript it's easier to keep track of other possibilities- something you can't do with notation programmes when working on a single score, unless you work actively on multiple versions, which in practical terms isn't going to happen.

Re: Is there anyone out there who still uses manuscript???? [Re: Froglegs] #1797548
11/28/11 11:53 PM
11/28/11 11:53 PM
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Posts: 51
WNY
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Rollin shoulders Offline
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I've recently picked up writing out music on manuscript,
I've been doodleing with piano parts, and when I get my cello soon I can't wait to compose parts over it.

Also being in a college theory class, you go through a lot of manuscript paper.

But I agree with you, manuscript all the way.


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Re: Is there anyone out there who still uses manuscript???? [Re: Froglegs] #1797636
11/29/11 07:26 AM
11/29/11 07:26 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,236
London UK
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Exalted Wombat Offline
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As an extension to this question - does anyone still BUY manuscript? Or, like me, just keep a suitable PDF in My Documents and press Print?

Re: Is there anyone out there who still uses manuscript???? [Re: Froglegs] #1797757
11/29/11 01:55 PM
11/29/11 01:55 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,338
Switzerland
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mrenaud Offline
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Switzerland
I still do use manuscript, but I rarely buy staff paper anymore. I usually create an empty manuscript sheet in Sibelius, containing the instruments I need, and print a batch of it. Much cheaper than staff paper too (which is horribly expensive around these parts).


I have an ice cream. I cannot mail it, for it will melt.
Re: Is there anyone out there who still uses manuscript???? [Re: mrenaud] #1797851
11/29/11 05:20 PM
11/29/11 05:20 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,233
Down Under
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I'd probably do that, except that I have piles of ms paper lying around. At one stage in my life I really stocked up! (thinking I was going to be more prolific than I actually was...)


Du holde Kunst...
Re: Is there anyone out there who still uses manuscript???? [Re: Froglegs] #1798170
11/30/11 05:03 AM
11/30/11 05:03 AM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,607
Manchester, UK
debrucey Offline
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Most of the composers I know use A3 manuscript for pretty much everything. I imagine they buy it, mainly cos it would cost a lot to print your own A3 manuscript in our college library (not a lot of people have A3 printers in their homes lol) but also because its nice to work on nice paper.

Re: Is there anyone out there who still uses manuscript???? [Re: debrucey] #1798191
11/30/11 07:47 AM
11/30/11 07:47 AM
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London UK
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Exalted Wombat Offline
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Originally Posted by debrucey
Most of the composers I know use A3 manuscript for pretty much everything. I imagine they buy it, mainly cos it would cost a lot to print your own A3 manuscript in our college library (not a lot of people have A3 printers in their homes lol) but also because its nice to work on nice paper.


I hear of some colleges which insist on work being computer-scored. As there's also pressure to be "non-traditional" this can turn the emphasis of the course from "composition" to "making Sibelius jump through hoops". Which, at least, may prove to be a marketable skill :-)

Enjoy it while you can - it's only at college that most of us had occasion to score for an ensemble that filled an A3 page - with any chance of performance at least!

Re: Is there anyone out there who still uses manuscript???? [Re: Froglegs] #1798478
11/30/11 06:30 PM
11/30/11 06:30 PM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,607
Manchester, UK
debrucey Offline
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They typeset everything in Sibelius for submission, but the actual composition is done on paper. A friend of mine is currently working on an A3 orchestral score that is at present 150 pages long, and beautifully neat too. It blows my mind lol. He writes solo piano on A3 too though.

Re: Is there anyone out there who still uses manuscript???? [Re: Exalted Wombat] #1800339
12/04/11 07:53 AM
12/04/11 07:53 AM
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London, UK
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kevinb Offline
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Originally Posted by Exalted Wombat
I hear of some colleges which insist on work being computer-scored. As there's also pressure to be "non-traditional" this can turn the emphasis of the course from "composition" to "making Sibelius jump through hoops". Which, at least, may prove to be a marketable skill :-)


I studied composition at two colleges -- one insisted on computer scoring, the other strongly discouraged it. The one that insisted gave as the reason that it made it easier to pass copies of the work around between tutors. The one that discouraged it said that students tended to play their work into Sibelius (or whatever) via a MIDI keyboard, rather than learning how to use the software properly. The results were often much messier than a paper exercise would have been.

Ideally, using Sibelius (etc) shouldn't amount to making it jump through hoops -- basic note entry and formatting should be very straightforward. But, then, not everybody spends the working day in front of a computer as I do, and I appreciate that not everybody sees things the same way.




Re: Is there anyone out there who still uses manuscript???? [Re: kevinb] #1800350
12/04/11 08:59 AM
12/04/11 08:59 AM
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London UK
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Exalted Wombat Offline
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Joined: Feb 2009
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London UK
Originally Posted by kevinb
Ideally, using Sibelius (etc) shouldn't amount to making it jump through hoops -- basic note entry and formatting should be very straightforward. But, then, not everybody spends the working day in front of a computer as I do, and I appreciate that not everybody sees things the same way.


The hoop-jumping comes when "basic note entry and formatting" are not enough! Many composition courses are focussed on "Modern Classical" where innovation is a constant goal. New techniques demand new notation. Sibelius can often do it, but ingenuity is required!

Sometimes, however, you hit a brick wall. I heard of one course where the teacher insisted on the use of stemlets. He also required computer scores. In those days, Sibelius didn't support stemlets (it does now). He, apparantly, saw this as the students' problem. Much (completely musical unproductive) manual tweaking was required.

Re: Is there anyone out there who still uses manuscript???? [Re: Exalted Wombat] #1801851
12/07/11 07:28 AM
12/07/11 07:28 AM
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London, UK
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kevinb Offline
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Originally Posted by Exalted Wombat
I heard of one course where the teacher insisted on the use of stemlets. He also required computer scores. In those days, Sibelius didn't support stemlets (it does now). He, apparantly, saw this as the students' problem. Much (completely musical unproductive) manual tweaking was required.


Yes but, to be fair, that's not the fault of the software of the general policy of using it. It's a particular tutor's eccentricity.

Re: Is there anyone out there who still uses manuscript???? [Re: Exalted Wombat] #1801878
12/07/11 08:57 AM
12/07/11 08:57 AM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,803
Decatur, Texas
Studio Joe Offline
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Originally Posted by Exalted Wombat
I heard of one course where the teacher insisted on the use of stemlets.


What is a stemlet?


Joe Whitehead ------ Texas Trax
Re: Is there anyone out there who still uses manuscript???? [Re: Froglegs] #1801883
12/07/11 09:01 AM
12/07/11 09:01 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,236
London UK
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Exalted Wombat Offline
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Joined: Feb 2009
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London UK
Truncated stems leading towards a rest when one is included in a beamed group. There's a discussion here:

http://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/hel...rt=377047&groupid=3&&guest=1

Re: Is there anyone out there who still uses manuscript???? [Re: Froglegs] #1801939
12/07/11 11:02 AM
12/07/11 11:02 AM
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UK
Nikolas Offline
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Brucey: A3!??!? That's... mildly big for small ensembles, no? I mean I've used A3 size paper (which I photocopies actually) for symphonic works and large ensembles, but now that I'm working on a violin duet, it's just a normal A4 page (with 5 systems) and it's fine.

___________

Stemlets: I see what the fuzz is about: It's not necessary to use them, but in some occasions it may prove handy for the performers as far as I can tell...

Re: Is there anyone out there who still uses manuscript???? [Re: Froglegs] #1802560
12/08/11 10:51 AM
12/08/11 10:51 AM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,607
Manchester, UK
debrucey Offline
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I think the argument my flatmate gave for it was that you can see more of the score at once when you lay the pages out on your bed lol. But yeh, most composers I know seem to use A3 for pretty much everything. This includes the staff composers too. Perhaps its a UK thing.

Re: Is there anyone out there who still uses manuscript???? [Re: Froglegs] #1807896
12/18/11 01:47 AM
12/18/11 01:47 AM
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Shadow2662 Offline
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Wow, a lot has happened while I was off. This is a bit long only because of two reasons:

1) It is something that I have also thought of when I started
2) Due to an acquaintance, I have had this topic slightly cleared up for me as far as the notation software since I was of two minds on it but not anymore.

I think everyone here has a really fair point on using either manuscript paper or a software program like Finale, etc. to write out music. To start with, I first used manuscript paper when I realized I was hearing music. I even took a habit that an acquaintance of mine once told me he did and I find it useful. If I come up with a main melody, I can write that down in the manuscript paper but then I'll transfer it onto Finale Notepad and then work from there.

I had seen the same acquaintance recently at a small lecture he gave and someone asked him a question that I think speaks a lot of volume about some composers. the question to him was something along the lines of his opinion of the notation software and if sticking strictly to the piano makes it easier.

His answer was something I don't think I expected: he said that yes, the piano is helpful, but it only gives you the sound of the piano making it difficult to write out for other instruments. This is where the notation software make it easier for composers to hear better which instruments get which parts. In many ways, the software programs are helping composers for instrumentation.

Again, I believe it strongly depends on the person and their mindset. If you believe that writing down the melody on manuscript paper is easier, then it is easier. If writing it out in notation software is easier, then it is easier.

As for regarding purchasing manuscript paper: I've had the same two notebooks of manuscript paper since I worked on my first composition for a CP project in High School and haven't had to buy another one in a long time.

Shadow2662

Re: Is there anyone out there who still uses manuscript???? [Re: Froglegs] #1809596
12/20/11 10:46 PM
12/20/11 10:46 PM
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Manchester, UK
debrucey Offline
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Surely it is a good thing for a composer to develop their aural skills such that they are able to hear these things in their head, without having to rely on software or an instrument to know if it will sound right. That for me is the biggest argument for using manuscript paper. Whenever I use Sibelius I have the sound turned off.

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