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Re: A good amateur plays slow pieces as well as professionals [Re: pianomie] #1798514
11/30/11 07:41 PM
11/30/11 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by pianomie
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by apple*
sorry about the astonishing comment i made.....

I don't think you need to apologize. I think most of the time when someone says "astonishing," a kick in the rear is in order for one reason or another.

BTW, I say it a fair amount. ha

Some folks might feel excessive use of ha deserves a kick in the rear. But I've also heard people describe somebody as having the kind of a face that they just feel like punching. Takes all kinds, I guess.

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

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Re: A good amateur plays slow pieces as well as professionals [Re: bobmckay] #1798559
11/30/11 08:40 PM
11/30/11 08:40 PM
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OK, now somebody has to post a pro recording of Flaxen Hair so we can compare .... grin

Glutton for punishment!

Re: A good amateur plays slow pieces as well as professionals [Re: bobmckay] #1798579
11/30/11 09:22 PM
11/30/11 09:22 PM
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not somewhere over the rainbow
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Stores, you're walking on THIN ice! MOLTO thin!!!



"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth."
Re: A good amateur plays slow pieces as well as professionals [Re: stores] #1798599
11/30/11 10:10 PM
11/30/11 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
You don't play much Debussy? Really? I wonder why, or in this case why not?
Same reason I don't play Rachmaninoff: "too many notes." grin
Too mushy.
I much prefer Ravel.
Why don't I play much Ravel either?
Probably because I can't. ha
Hahaha! Seriously, too many notes with Debussy? Rach, I can understand (and agree), but there are far more notes with Ravel than Debussy.

Yes, but not excessive ones. grin

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Re: A good amateur plays slow pieces as well as professionals [Re: Quaver Pyjama] #1798600
11/30/11 10:11 PM
11/30/11 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Quaver Pyjama
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Well said.

Re: A good amateur plays slow pieces as well as professionals [Re: Piano*Dad] #1798653
12/01/11 12:32 AM
12/01/11 12:32 AM
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Ann Arbor, MI
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Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
OK, now somebody has to post a pro recording of Flaxen Hair so we can compare .... grin

Glutton for punishment!

OK, here ya go... grin


"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP
Re: A good amateur plays slow pieces as well as professionals [Re: stores] #1798663
12/01/11 12:58 AM
12/01/11 12:58 AM
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Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
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stores, I think Ravel is a lot more worth it than Debussy, personally.

And regarding Rachmaninoff and too many notes... No. I can't think of any top-tier composer that had too many notes, really.

Last edited by Orange Soda King; 12/01/11 01:00 AM.
Re: A good amateur plays slow pieces as well as professionals [Re: Orange Soda King] #1798668
12/01/11 01:05 AM
12/01/11 01:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
....regarding Rachmaninoff and too many notes... No. I can't think of any top-tier composer that had too many notes....

I would say there's a non sequitur in there. grin

Re: A good amateur plays slow pieces as well as professionals [Re: Orange Soda King] #1798669
12/01/11 01:05 AM
12/01/11 01:05 AM
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not somewhere over the rainbow
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Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
stores, I think Ravel is a lot more worth it than Debussy, personally.



shocked shocked shocked

PLAY THE VIOLIN SONATA! NOW!



"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth."
Re: A good amateur plays slow pieces as well as professionals [Re: Pogorelich.] #1798674
12/01/11 01:17 AM
12/01/11 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Pogorelich.
Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
stores, I think Ravel is a lot more worth it than Debussy, personally.



shocked shocked shocked

PLAY THE VIOLIN SONATA! NOW!


Or the preludes...

The thing that made me favor Debussy over Ravel (not that you have to pick just one) was listening to their respective string quartets, side-by-side. That sealed it.

That said, now that I'm working on Jeux d'Eau, I have a newfound love for Maurice as well. Even if I'm still on "team Debussy".

What's the great line... Ravel depicts things in the world (in their crystalline beauty), while Debussy depicts our thoughts and feelings about things in the world... something like that.

-Jason


Beethoven op.110, Chopin op.27/2, Liszt Vallée d'Obermann
Re: A good amateur plays slow pieces as well as professionals [Re: bobmckay] #1798675
12/01/11 01:19 AM
12/01/11 01:19 AM
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Ah, see now.. I couldn't pick between the Debussy and Ravel string quartets... they're both just so perfect. Difficult as helll, too.



"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth."
Re: A good amateur plays slow pieces as well as professionals [Re: Pogorelich.] #1798686
12/01/11 01:41 AM
12/01/11 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Pogorelich.
Ah, see now.. I couldn't pick between the Debussy and Ravel string quartets... they're both just so perfect. Difficult as helll, too.

Nice job keeping the site filter from turning that into "heck." ha

(I typed the real word, knowing that the site would do the rest of the work.)

Re: A good amateur plays slow pieces as well as professionals [Re: Mark_C] #1798703
12/01/11 02:06 AM
12/01/11 02:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by Pogorelich.
Ah, see now.. I couldn't pick between the Debussy and Ravel string quartets... they're both just so perfect. Difficult as helll, too.

Nice job keeping the site filter from turning that into "heck." ha

(I typed the real word, knowing that the site would do the rest of the work.)


What the hеll are you talking about? smile



[Linked Image]

Music is my best friend.


Re: A good amateur plays slow pieces as well as professionals [Re: ChopinAddict] #1798706
12/01/11 02:18 AM
12/01/11 02:18 AM
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Originally Posted by ChopinAddict
What the hеll are you talking about? smile

G00d j0b there t00. ha

Re: A good amateur plays slow pieces as well as professionals [Re: Piano*Dad] #1798720
12/01/11 03:27 AM
12/01/11 03:27 AM
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Rockford, IL
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Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
Bruce assumes correctly! Actually, I have the video here so it'll be posted shortly. There are some "issues" that I will iron out soon and I will rerecord it. The danger of playing something "old" is that you discover how much you have, ah ....., let certain little things stretch or change in ways that aren't always in the score. On the other hand, that's not always a complete no no in Debussy. My youngest plays Debussy's Syrinx on the flute. If you play that piece exactly as it's written, the piece sounds truly terrible. No flutist worth his/her salt would conceive of playing it that way.

And here is the little video:

La Fille Aux Cheveux de Lin

P.S. You need Flash Player



I LIKED IT!!! Very much! This was not Debussy on a bad day for you at all!!! I would like to hear this performance (or the next) in a recording quality that suits the playing--i.e., high quality. Not dissing your set-up, just asking for more... grin


I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.
Re: A good amateur plays slow pieces as well as professionals [Re: Orange Soda King] #1798740
12/01/11 05:13 AM
12/01/11 05:13 AM
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Here, as opposed to there
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Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
stores, I think Ravel is a lot more worth it than Debussy, personally.


I love them both.

Originally Posted by Orange Soda King

And regarding Rachmaninoff and too many notes... No. I can't think of any top-tier composer that had too many notes, really.


You're correct, of course, but Rach and Liszt STILL could have saved a TON of ink and come away with pretty much the same result. I'm not ripping on either of them (well maybe a little with Franz), because I do love them both, but neither were familiar with the term "overkill" obviously.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: A good amateur plays slow pieces as well as professionals [Re: Pogorelich.] #1798741
12/01/11 05:14 AM
12/01/11 05:14 AM
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Here, as opposed to there
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Originally Posted by Pogorelich.
Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
stores, I think Ravel is a lot more worth it than Debussy, personally.



shocked shocked shocked

PLAY THE VIOLIN SONATA! NOW!


I love that piece and you know it!



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: A good amateur plays slow pieces as well as professionals [Re: Pogorelich.] #1798742
12/01/11 05:14 AM
12/01/11 05:14 AM
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Here, as opposed to there
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Originally Posted by Pogorelich.
Stores, you're walking on THIN ice! MOLTO thin!!!


I'll show you molto! Neeners! =p



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: A good amateur plays slow pieces as well as professionals [Re: stores] #1798747
12/01/11 05:35 AM
12/01/11 05:35 AM
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New York
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Originally Posted by stores
....Rach and Liszt STILL could have saved a TON of ink and come away with pretty much the same result....

Nay, better! grin

Re: A good amateur plays slow pieces as well as professionals [Re: stores] #1798779
12/01/11 08:39 AM
12/01/11 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by stores
I'm not ripping on either of them (well maybe a little with Franz)


Blasphemy!

Re: A good amateur plays slow pieces as well as professionals [Re: Mark_C] #1798780
12/01/11 08:40 AM
12/01/11 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by stores
....Rach and Liszt STILL could have saved a TON of ink and come away with pretty much the same result....

Nay, better! grin


More Blasphemy!

Re: A good amateur plays slow pieces as well as professionals [Re: bobmckay] #1798796
12/01/11 09:11 AM
12/01/11 09:11 AM
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Williamsburg, VA
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Originally Posted by Cinnamonbear
I would like to hear this performance (or the next) in a recording quality that suits the playing--i.e., high quality. Not dissing your set-up, just asking for more...


Well, the setup is my new Canon SLR. For home amateurs it's hard to get better video quality than 1080p HD. On the other hand, the all-important audio is whatever is in the camera. My alternative is my little Zoom H4. I think the Zoom has a slightly warmer sound, but all the little microphones tend to compress the dynamic range. And that's what I think is the biggest problem in this recording. In person, I think you would have heard somewhat softer softs and the crescendos would have been easier to identify. But I do so little of this that spending lots of bucks on a more complicated system simply isn't worth the cost and the hassle. It's so easy to put the SLR on a tripod and push the button!

On the supposed substance of this thread, I don't think too many people around here would have much trouble identifying the pro in a sequential listening. Michelangeli simply has better finger control. His dynamic shading is more precise. Nothing slips at all (I had at least one shaky landing).

But honestly, I prefer my own take on the piece, despite my amateurish failings. I don't think this is stupid hubris either. I'm not a hacker who misses every third note while proclaiming how good he is. I just found my take on the piece less over-thought (and overwrought) and more faithful to the score, despite one or two notes that I unfortunately didn't give full value. If we're counting deliberate or (in my case) accidental changes to the flow, I think I win by having fewer. smile

But this is a matter of taste.

Re: A good amateur plays slow pieces as well as professionals [Re: Piano*Dad] #1798799
12/01/11 09:30 AM
12/01/11 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
I just found my take on the piece less over-thought (and overwrought) and more faithful to the score, despite one or two notes that I unfortunately didn't give full value. If we're counting deliberate or (in my case) accidental changes to the flow, I think I win by having fewer.
I think you have both more tempo changes and greater extremes of change than Michelangeli and that is the main thing you should reconsider in your performance. For me, some of them seem so arbitrary that they sound more like rhythmic inaccuracies than appropriate rubato.

I like this performance the best of the ones I listened to on Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDv97T9ocLg

Last edited by pianoloverus; 12/01/11 09:39 AM.
Re: A good amateur plays slow pieces as well as professionals [Re: Piano*Dad] #1798824
12/01/11 10:39 AM
12/01/11 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
[...] But honestly, I prefer my own take on the piece, despite my amateurish failings. I don't think this is stupid hubris either. I'm not a hacker who misses every third note while proclaiming how good he is. I just found my take on the piece less over-thought (and overwrought) and more faithful to the score, despite one or two notes that I unfortunately didn't give full value. If we're counting deliberate or (in my case) accidental changes to the flow, I think I win by having fewer. smile

But this is a matter of taste.


This is what it is all about, imo--that you have an artistic vision for "the way it should go," and you play it that way. Your inner musical ear is telling you, "play it like this," and you do. I just finished listening to it for a fourth time, and it is really lovely. I hope you give us more to listen to in the future!

--Andy


I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.
Re: A good amateur plays slow pieces as well as professionals [Re: pianoloverus] #1798841
12/01/11 11:02 AM
12/01/11 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
I just found my take on the piece less over-thought (and overwrought) and more faithful to the score, despite one or two notes that I unfortunately didn't give full value. If we're counting deliberate or (in my case) accidental changes to the flow, I think I win by having fewer.
I think you have both more tempo changes and greater extremes of change than Michelangeli and that is the main thing you should reconsider in your performance. For me, some of them seem so arbitrary that they sound more like rhythmic inaccuracies than appropriate rubato.

I like this performance the best of the ones I listened to on Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDv97T9ocLg


I prefer Thibaudet's take to Michelangeli's. Thibaudet's vision is calmer and more reflective, and much less over-thought. This is all taste preference, to be sure.

There is at least one obvious timing issue in my rendition that is a clear error. I don't hold a half note long enough. The vast majority of non-pianist listeners would never notice. That's what I meant earlier about the 2'24" amateur marathoners having a different perspective than the 3'20" plodders who just want to finish in style. Pianists, and people with a score in hand, can see what average listeners cannot.

Glad you liked my playing. smile

Re: A good amateur plays slow pieces as well as professionals [Re: Piano*Dad] #1798861
12/01/11 11:43 AM
12/01/11 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
[...] There is at least one obvious timing issue in my rendition that is a clear error. I don't hold a half note long enough. The vast majority of non-pianist listeners would never notice. That's what I meant earlier about the 2'24" amateur marathoners having a different perspective than the 3'20" plodders who just want to finish in style. Pianists, and people with a score in hand, can see what average listeners cannot. [...]


And this is what I meant by elite pianists playing to elite audiences--those who know, playing to those who know. Average listeners (most people) can and do enjoy performances that may otherwise be slightly flawed and/or panned outright by critics.

What I like about posting to Pianist Corner is that many listeners are of the "elite audience" variety. They certainly know more than I do! So I benefit by the critique and my home town minor league audience gets the benefit of a more informed performance. grin


I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.
Re: A good amateur plays slow pieces as well as professionals [Re: Cinnamonbear] #1798877
12/01/11 12:31 PM
12/01/11 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Cinnamonbear
This is what it is all about, imo--that you have an artistic vision for "the way it should go," and you play it that way. Your inner musical ear is telling you, "play it like this," and you do.
So if your musical vision and inner musical ear tell you to turn the music upside down and play it like that, then that's OK?

Re: A good amateur plays slow pieces as well as professionals [Re: pianoloverus] #1798939
12/01/11 03:23 PM
12/01/11 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Cinnamonbear
This is what it is all about, imo--that you have an artistic vision for "the way it should go," and you play it that way. Your inner musical ear is telling you, "play it like this," and you do.
So if your musical vision and inner musical ear tell you to turn the music upside down and play it like that, then that's OK?


Give it a rest, PL'us. Like a conductor who pulls music from an orchestra by reading a score, Piano*Dad commanded music from his piano by respecting the score. I assumed a context of understanding in making an encouraging statement. No one listening to Piano*Dad's performance of "The Girl With The Flaxen Hair" would mistake it for anything else. My comment has to do with nuance and phrasing.


I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.
Re: A good amateur plays slow pieces as well as professionals [Re: Cinnamonbear] #1798958
12/01/11 04:18 PM
12/01/11 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Cinnamonbear
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Cinnamonbear
This is what it is all about, imo--that you have an artistic vision for "the way it should go," and you play it that way. Your inner musical ear is telling you, "play it like this," and you do.
So if your musical vision and inner musical ear tell you to turn the music upside down and play it like that, then that's OK?


Give it a rest, PL'us. Like a conductor who pulls music from an orchestra by reading a score, Piano*Dad commanded music from his piano by respecting the score. I assumed a context of understanding in making an encouraging statement. No one listening to Piano*Dad's performance of "The Girl With The Flaxen Hair" would mistake it for anything else. My comment has to do with nuance and phrasing.
My comment was about your persistently expressed idea that vision, originality, your inner ear telling you play it like this, etc. is in itself a justification for however anyone plays. Unless backed by musicianship, understanding, a desire to play according to what the composer wrote(this still allows endless possibilities), and taste, a vision means very little IMO.

That's why I chose such an extreme example of "interpretation" as turning the music upside down. That's one of the reasons why many are critical of some fo LL's performances.

I'm sure the creator of the Beethoven Pathetique video in a recent thread also had a vision. And although he's a good pianist, I'm not sure P*D did really respect the score in terms of the rhythm he chose.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 12/01/11 04:26 PM.
Re: A good amateur plays slow pieces as well as professionals [Re: pianoloverus] #1799049
12/01/11 07:20 PM
12/01/11 07:20 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651
Here, as opposed to there
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member
stores  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651
Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
the "idea that vision, originality, your inner ear telling you play it like this, etc. is in itself a justification for however anyone plays. Unless backed by musicianship, understanding, a desire to play according to what the composer wrote(this still allows endless possibilities), and taste, a vision means very little IMO."



I didn't bother reading the rest of the conversation between P'Dad and Plover, but this gets a nod from me regardless of it's intended target.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

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