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Well that's exactly what i don't understand. Whether the force required "without" to depress the key the first 3 mm is to overcome gravity or to compress a spring doesn't matter, beyond that point the feeling should be exactly the same ... except ... in the "without" case the hammer already has a certain speed, so it requires less acceleration/force beyond that point.

The longer I think about it, the more I become convinced that -subconsciously- I already reduce force in the "without" situation to reduce the acceleration, and that the "weight" of the key which is just the same just seems larger compared to this smaller force. That, and a little extra effort to lift the hammers higher. Does thst make sense?

Actually, what happens when the soft pedal on an upright is depressed, the hammers are moved forward, but the wippens are usually not affected, so suddenly there is a great deal of lost motion added to the action. So the wippens start moving long before the hammer starts moving, and there is less resistance when the key is first depressed. You have less inertia to overcome at the onset, and you will be overcoming the inertia of the hammer with a running start, so to speak. With less resistance, you may be playing with greater force without realizing it, and since the only thing that affects the volume is how fast the hammer is going when it hits the string, the piano may not play any softer when you use the pedal. (A couple of notes: Upright keys are weighted to compensate for the difference in hammer weights, which means that most of the keys will fall when that pedal is used, and others will not. Also, there are some old uprights that have lost motion compensation when the soft pedal is used, which minimize, but do not eliminate the difference in the touch.)

On the other hand, there is no difference in the touch on a grand piano where the action is shifted. Sometimes there is not much difference in the tone, either, depending on how much the piano has been played and how well it has been serviced.

alot of beginners like the peddle as they are just shy and it makes the playing and the mistakes less apparent. But anything fast will sound muddy as you really need those upper harmonics to bring out the transients of those quick passages.

Of course you use the pedal. That's not even a question. But there's technique to that. 90% of sheet music has indication on when to depress and lift the pedal. The pedal is very important. You don't just keep it down the whole time. Is that what you're doing? That will make it sound really muddy after a while. Also, there are different levels to the pedal. Sometimes you might only want to depress it a little bit. It's not meant for making the keys feel differently (though that can be an important factor to pedalling), it's meant to add different qualities to your tone and dynamics. Different pianos require different pedalling. For instance, the pianos in the practice rooms at my school are tanks (Yamahas) and a little bit goes a long way. Just do it by ear, figure out the different effects you can get from it. There are whole books on pedalling.

Are you sure you're not talking about the other left?

I too favor the left pedal on most instruments, because most pianos are not very good nor are they set up well. This causes crudeness in the sound and response that can be somewhat mitigated with the soft pedal. Some of us have a horror of coarseness, or of a piano that cannot play softly in a consistent manner. That's a good thing.
Here's a bad thing: using the left pedal out of sheer habit. In a well-made and well-regulated instrument, dynamics are ruled happily by your fingers, and the una corda takes its rightful place as a color of choice, not as a mere diminisher of crudeness.
We all have different thresholds for this factor; one player's "crude" is another's "rich and powerful". I don't like having to use una corda so much of the time, but it's a rare (and expensive) instrument that will free me from the impulse.
(I have an unrestored 1918 M&H BB that permits this.)

Danielsan:

You are talking about the damper pedal, it seems. Everyone else is talking about the "soft" (left) pedal on an upright.

Regards,

Lots of good points here.. practice-wise, what it comes down to for me is avoiding the soft pedal (which I enjoy the actual SOUND of on my upright) becoming a crutch for playing delicate parts. However, on a piece that benefits from the fuzzy, washed-out sound of it, I don't think great velocity control can substitute the effect of the pedal, since the actual strike of the hammer is affected. I'm sure there are scholarly arguments to be made about that, and perhaps it's different on a grand, but I personally love the sound of a nocturne style piece played on a muted, cloudy-sounding piano.

Ehh

but the whole point is that (on an upright) the left panel does not in itself change the sound of the piano, it only allows me, with my limited technique, to play softer.

Other left, right. I rarely use that pedal. I think it's good to try and wean yourself off of it unless the piece calls for it. It sounds like a kind of limiting habit as far as dynamics go.

I think good technique should allow you to sound good under many circumstances. What if you're somewhere and there is a piano, and it's a very loud piano, and coincidently, the soft pedal doesn't work (there's one at my school, actually). Can you play pianissimo? Of course you can, but not if you're dependent on the soft pedal.

If you prefer the feel of your upright with the left pedal depressed, you may want to talk to your tech about regulating the piano, if possible, so it feels the way you want without the pedal down.

I lean on my soft pedal as well, and I am now doubly committed to getting my piano regulated.

The encouragements above convinced me to start playing without the left pedal, but it has been difficult and 6 months later i'm not completely there yet. But i think i'm on the right track and i thought i'd share my experiences here. Maybe those who encouraged me are interested, or it can help someone with the same problem.

In my opening post i mentioned that i was addicted to the left pedal on my upright. So that's not an una corda pedal, but a pedal that brings all hammers closer to the strings, and also makes the keys feel lighter. The reason was that i felt i had more control playing softly. You convinced me that is was possible to play equally softly without it, and of course i knew it was a bad habit, so i decided to quit.

In my opening post I mentioned that playing without it felt very awkward. What happened was this: when i tried to play a single note without the left pedal, the key felt a little heavier, and a little more difficult to control. Just something that takes some getting used to, no big deal. However, when i tried to play a piece, the keys felt 10 times heavier, requiring enormous force, even (or rather: especially!) in soft passages. With disastrous sound of course.

So i started thinking: how can the same key be 10 times heavier when I'm playing
a piece, compared to when i just press it? Then i realized that without the pedal, it takes a longer time to press the key, especially when the key moves very slowly like in soft passages.

When you play, you don't think about when you start pressing the key (at least i didn't), you just imagine when the sound should be, and you do it subconsciously. So being used to playing without the pedal, i subconsciously started too late, and tried to make the key and hammer travel a longer distance in the same time, which explains why that didn't work.

I am now trying to get used to the new timing coordination but that was a bizarre experience. I had to play at glacial speeds, note for note, chord for chord, really thinking:
"Okay, i'm going to press now, hey i feel it going down, going, going, ah there's the sound. That was good, next one". Even if i played only a little bit faster, as soon as i could notice the melody my subconscious would take over.

After some time i could start playing very very slowly at first, and then always a little bit faster. I am now at a point where i can play some not too difficult pieces (like Chopin noct op. 32 no 1) at a little more than half speed. It feels like i am learning to walk again. Fast runs are out of the question.

I must say that i like the sensation of actually feeling the key going down, i didn't have that before. And i hope that, in time, that gives me the control i didn't have before. I can't control the pp levels yet like i used to with the left pedal, but i have the feeling that i can make more "shades" of volume than i could before. I also have trouble making the notes in a chord sound at the same time, especially when my 2nd and 4th finger are involved, and in combinations of black and white keys.

But i think i'm getting there! Anyway, thanks for the advice!

Haven't read the whole thread (only now just saw it), but a couple of things.....


That can be good, up to a point, but whatever you do, make sure you're always 'singing out' the melodies!!! You hardly ever want your melodies to be muffled, no matter how soft the overall dynamic.


Funny -- I think of it mostly the opposite: the heavier the action (within reason) ....the better is the control, in various respects including softness and degrees of softness.

A bit of a tangent question for you: I got addicted to using the left pedal on my upright a few years ago, and I've tried stopping that but I still find myself putting it down without noticing. Did you have this issue?

If you are using the soft pedal on a vertical piano, the hammers are moved closer to the strings, but the rest of the action stays where it is. This usually means adding lost motion into the keys, which is lag between when the key moves and when the hammer moves. (There should be no lost motion, but people who do not maintain their pianos well enough often have some.) Since the key is moving without the hammer, there is less inertia, and the key is usually moving faster when the hammer actually begins to move. So the hammer may be moving faster, which means that it will hit the string harder, negating the effect of the soft pedal. There is really no substitute for maintaining your piano and learning to play softer.

That's exactly the point. I like the sound of my piano. And i don't know it's the brand (Sauter) or the way this particular one was voiced, but it was the reason i bought this one a llong time ago. Only when i play very softly, i get that soft velvety sound. When I play a little louder it quickly becomes clear, but neutral and even louder it becomes sharp.

So it is very easy to make the melody stand out, if only the rest of the notes keep their voice down.

To me, that's usually the key (no pun) for lyrical playing. If you're doing that, the issue of using the soft pedal or how much you're using the soft pedal is a tiny secondary thing.

Although it does sound like you might want to look into some voicing.

Yes, very much so, but not anymore!

Partly it was simply because without it, i couldn't play at all.
Now i still sometimes find that, before striking the first note, i press the pedal, like it's a preparation, not part of the actual playing.

But now, if I do that, i miss the feeling of the keys, so i immediately let go.