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Glenn Gould IQ? #1782367
11/03/11 11:44 AM
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Theodore Slutz Offline OP
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I know this a frivolous issue as i often don't pay much attention to such matters but i was curious about Glenn Gould"s IQ and couldn't find anything out there.

Anyone know?

What about other famous pianists or more importantly composers?


Charles Walter Model W (190)


“The aim and final end of all music should be none other than the glory of God and the refreshment of the soul.” J.S. Bach


"I just want to know, if we came from monkeys and apes, WHY DO WE STILL HAVE MONKEYS AND APES?" George Carlin
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Re: Glenn Gould IQ? [Re: Theodore Slutz] #1782373
11/03/11 11:54 AM
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I don't know, but it's a good opening for this thing about IQ's.

You have to remember, it's not just how smart someone is. It's how they do on a test that they have to sit down for and go through, besides measuring just a certain kind of "intelligence." Oddly, the first thing, which is simpler, is probably less appreciated. People seem to think of "IQ" as some abstract measure, rather than the result of a test that you have to sit for.

I can well imagine that Gould may have been either extremely good or quite bad at that kind of intelligence. But even more so, I can imagine that he wouldn't have had the patience or interest, or maybe the attentional ability, to show his full abilities on such a test. I would guess that his performance would have been mediocre -- but that it wouldn't have anything to do with his intelligence, whatever we might mean by the term.

Re: Glenn Gould IQ? [Re: Theodore Slutz] #1782380
11/03/11 12:12 PM
11/03/11 12:12 PM
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Among other criteria I would think that Gould's awareness and use of subtleties and refinements in language would be as much an indication of his intelligence as the results on any formalized IQ test he might have taken.

Regards,


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Re: Glenn Gould IQ? [Re: Theodore Slutz] #1782425
11/03/11 01:42 PM
11/03/11 01:42 PM
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+1 BruceD,
Gould's amazing memory, understanding of music, and his use of language indicates an IQ that was probably very high - at least good enough for MENSA. smile

To be a good composer requires a fair amount of intelligence and Gould indeed composed many (arguably good) works.

Theodore, you asked about other composers/pianists. It's been said that Mozart had one of the highest IQ's of anyone who has ever lived on this planet - alongside Einstein and his camp (Newton, Hawking, Feynman, etc), Shakespeare and his camp, Aristotle and his camp (Socrates, Plato, etc.). Through detailed analysis of his scores, letters, and accounts, historians generally agree that he was one smart cookie!

It's difficult to compare his work to Leonardo da Vinci's for example. They worked in different realms, although Leonardo did play the violin I think. Most would agree that both were immeasurable geniuses, but who was smarter? It's tough to say without a living person taking a modern standardized IQ test.

Anyway, it's nice to know that we have some of the smartest of the smart (Mozart, Bach, Beethoven) in our music camp. laugh




Re: Glenn Gould IQ? [Re: Theodore Slutz] #1782456
11/03/11 02:37 PM
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Intelligence is a funny thing. The older I get the more I appreciate how difficult to define it is. I also have a much greater appreciation for the many different (and equally useful) kinds of smarts there are. I'm the type who tends to score well on scholastic aptitude tests...especially in the verbal realm...but I'm almost unbelievably dense in many practical areas. For just one example, I can stare at a map for hours without being able to figure out where I am. And my mechanical ability is non-existent.

As to Gould, no doubt he was a brilliant guy, but it didn't do him much good in finding happiness for any length of time. There's an emotional intelligence too, they're finding out. Not sure where I stand in that regard :>)

Re: Glenn Gould IQ? [Re: cardguy] #1782484
11/03/11 03:29 PM
11/03/11 03:29 PM
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I heard that the National Association of Gifted Performers had take the initiative to administer an IQ test to Glenn Gould.
Apparently, just when he had almost completed his test, he was booted out for humming too loud.

[ducks, runs and hides....]

Re: Glenn Gould IQ? [Re: Theodore Slutz] #1782511
11/03/11 04:15 PM
11/03/11 04:15 PM
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excellent, synergy thumb

Last edited by daviel; 11/03/11 04:16 PM.

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Re: Glenn Gould IQ? [Re: Theodore Slutz] #1782535
11/03/11 04:49 PM
11/03/11 04:49 PM
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I started to write earlier about a musical IQ but deleted it.

I tend to look at other musicians with a musical IQ perspective.

They might play extremely well and sight read extremely well, but can they do .... this ... or this effortlessly?





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Re: Glenn Gould IQ? [Re: Theodore Slutz] #1782601
11/03/11 06:09 PM
11/03/11 06:09 PM
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As for IQ in general, it's important to realize how much depends on the culture you are raised in. This is a link to a theoretical IQ test that might be given to an Original Australian from the Edward River Community in Far North Queensland. See how well you would do with it!

http://wilderdom.com/personality/intelligenceOriginalAustralian.html


Lee
Re: Glenn Gould IQ? [Re: leemax] #1782619
11/03/11 06:25 PM
11/03/11 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by leemax
As for IQ in general, it's important to realize how much depends on the culture you are raised in.


There are also culture-fair IQ tests, although they might not be 100% fair to all cultures.



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Re: Glenn Gould IQ? [Re: Theodore Slutz] #1782623
11/03/11 06:31 PM
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I would guess that Glenn Gould would score very well on a modern IQ test.

When I listen to his Bach recordings - any of them, really - he has a clear appreciation for (perhaps even a fascination with?) repetition, pattern, and variation. In both of the Goldbergs, especially, it's as if he feels at home in the fractaled tessellation of it all.

I don't really know how to describe it. But listening to his Goldbergs, it's as if he gets every pattern and sequence and internal relationship.

Re: Glenn Gould IQ? [Re: Theodore Slutz] #1782868
11/04/11 03:15 AM
11/04/11 03:15 AM
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As far as I know the Intelligence Quotient was devised to measure 'intelligence' in retarded kids. To me the whole argument is invalid since we don't know what we're talking about. What's wrong with trying to define intelligence is the infinite regress problem - namely that what humans probably percieve as intelligence is some sort of arrangement/connection of neurons in the brain and therefor if you perpetually try to define intelligence at a more fundamental level you inevitably regress down to the big bang.

Re: Glenn Gould IQ? [Re: Theodore Slutz] #1782877
11/04/11 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Theodore Slutz
I know this a frivolous issue as i often don't pay much attention to such matters but i was curious about Glenn Gould"s IQ and couldn't find anything out there.

Anyone know?

What about other famous pianists or more importantly composers?


I think that in most places, IQ test scores are considered to be highly confidential information.

So, even if Gould or other musicians had been given a standardized IQ test, there's no particular reason the results would be public knowledge, AFAIK.

I took "the IQ test" when I was a kid (I'm assuming it was some version of Stanford-Binet, but don't really know), but the results were never given to me. I'm not even sure why I had to take it. I guess the school system thought it was useful, but I don't think it really made any difference. There was some other test us kids had to take in the 6th grade that was called an "aptitude test". It seemed a lot like the IQ test, and again, we were never given the results, although I think the parents probably got them.

Finally, at the end of high-school, we actually were given the results of some standardized tests we took, the ACT and the SAT, but they weren't general IQ tests.


Re: Glenn Gould IQ? [Re: wr] #1783030
11/04/11 10:02 AM
11/04/11 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by wr
Originally Posted by Theodore Slutz
I know this a frivolous issue as i often don't pay much attention to such matters but i was curious about Glenn Gould"s IQ and couldn't find anything out there.

Anyone know?

What about other famous pianists or more importantly composers?


I think that in most places, IQ test scores are considered to be highly confidential information.

So, even if Gould or other musicians had been given a standardized IQ test, there's no particular reason the results would be public knowledge, AFAIK.

I took "the IQ test" when I was a kid (I'm assuming it was some version of Stanford-Binet, but don't really know), but the results were never given to me. I'm not even sure why I had to take it. I guess the school system thought it was useful, but I don't think it really made any difference. There was some other test us kids had to take in the 6th grade that was called an "aptitude test". It seemed a lot like the IQ test, and again, we were never given the results, although I think the parents probably got them.

Finally, at the end of high-school, we actually were given the results of some standardized tests we took, the ACT and the SAT, but they weren't general IQ tests.



Yep. They didn't want kids to feel inferior (or superior). But they did drive some mysterious behind the scenes manipulations. Suddenly I am taking French in 5th grade, put into a Great Books club...and called an underachiever. (This was 1965).

Also I remember later taking the SAT. Got a letter in the mail telling me to report to an unfamiliar high school next Saturday with 2 #2 pencils. No Kaplan courses, no study guides, no Pre-SAT, you just showed up and took it.


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Re: Glenn Gould IQ? [Re: Stanza] #1783502
11/05/11 03:30 AM
11/05/11 03:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Stanza
Originally Posted by wr

I think that in most places, IQ test scores are considered to be highly confidential information.

So, even if Gould or other musicians had been given a standardized IQ test, there's no particular reason the results would be public knowledge, AFAIK.

I took "the IQ test" when I was a kid (I'm assuming it was some version of Stanford-Binet, but don't really know), but the results were never given to me. I'm not even sure why I had to take it. I guess the school system thought it was useful, but I don't think it really made any difference. There was some other test us kids had to take in the 6th grade that was called an "aptitude test". It seemed a lot like the IQ test, and again, we were never given the results, although I think the parents probably got them.

Finally, at the end of high-school, we actually were given the results of some standardized tests we took, the ACT and the SAT, but they weren't general IQ tests.



Yep. They didn't want kids to feel inferior (or superior). But they did drive some mysterious behind the scenes manipulations. Suddenly I am taking French in 5th grade, put into a Great Books club...and called an underachiever. (This was 1965).

Also I remember later taking the SAT. Got a letter in the mail telling me to report to an unfamiliar high school next Saturday with 2 #2 pencils. No Kaplan courses, no study guides, no Pre-SAT, you just showed up and took it.


My school wasn't large enough for any special treatment to be given to the high scorers, which is one reason I wonder what they thought they could do with the results. Maybe it was just some state program they had to do.

I do remember that when the results of the aptitude test came in, the principal did something really stupid - he came into our 6th grade classroom and announced, as if he were telling us something Very Very Important, that one of us had tested out as being able to do college sophomore work, but he couldn't say who it was. Predictably, for the next few days, us kids all tried to figure out who the freak was, but failed to reach a consensus, since we thought there were several likely candidates.

My SAT experience was something like yours. There was no preparation for it at all, and I didn't know anyone else who had taken it, either, so I couldn't ask what it was like (it wasn't really the standard test in my location at the time - the ACT test was the one everybody heading to college usually took). To take it, I had to wake up early and drive to a high-school I'd never seen before, in a town about 35 miles away. On top of that, I had caught some bug and didn't feel very well, either, but it was my one and only chance to take it, so I had to go. It was a pretty strange experience, all in all, and I was really surprised when it turned out that I did okay. It's interesting that the SAT itself has turned into a whole course of study these days, instead of it being seen as just a measure of learning.

Re: Glenn Gould IQ? [Re: Theodore Slutz] #1783572
11/05/11 08:24 AM
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@Stanza and WR

Some kids whose parents knew about the SAT, ACT, etc and cared about the well being of their kids would have prepared the kids for this kind of exam. It could be a mysterious thing for you, but not for them. In the old days, it was so unfortunate that most parents were not aware about this thing.

Re: Glenn Gould IQ? [Re: Theodore Slutz] #1783592
11/05/11 09:01 AM
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Higher then mine.

Re: Glenn Gould IQ? [Re: Theodore Slutz] #1783651
11/05/11 11:16 AM
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That's interesting that nobody knows... I thought because of his Asperger syndrome he may have reflected a low result as many of the variants of autistic people do but actually show high functioning real world intelligence.


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“The aim and final end of all music should be none other than the glory of God and the refreshment of the soul.” J.S. Bach


"I just want to know, if we came from monkeys and apes, WHY DO WE STILL HAVE MONKEYS AND APES?" George Carlin
Re: Glenn Gould IQ? [Re: Theodore Slutz] #1783768
11/05/11 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Theodore Slutz
That's interesting that nobody knows... I thought because of his Asperger syndrome he may have reflected a low result as many of the variants of autistic people do but actually show high functioning real world intelligence.


Actually I thought it was the other way around. At least I know a few aspies (of course I cannot mention names here, as Google is our friend) who have a very high IQ and are members of HiQ societies but who are less functional in real life, although very accomplished in their own way. They are all at least >3sd...



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Re: Glenn Gould IQ? [Re: Theodore Slutz] #1783831
11/05/11 05:19 PM
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Its hard for me to guess. Gould was often contradictory in his philosophy and superfluous in his essay writings. His extraordinary sense of literacy leads me to believe that perhaps his IQ must have been of a high level. If it wasn't, then he sure made a good impression.


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Re: Glenn Gould IQ? [Re: Theodore Slutz] #1783919
11/05/11 08:59 PM
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I don't think anyone knows his actual score (or whether he even took an intelligence test).

However, it generally isn't hard to estimate someone's intelligence if you can hear him speak extemporaneously. For instance, vocabulary is very strongly correlated with intelligence, and someone with a robust vocabulary is probably pretty intelligence. By that principle, we can infer that Glenn Gould must be quite brilliant because his vocabulary and diction are off the charts. I would guess that his IQ is no less than 130, and probably north of 140.

Re: Glenn Gould IQ? [Re: erichlof] #1783982
11/06/11 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by erichlof
+1 BruceD,
Gould's amazing memory, understanding of music, and his use of language indicates an IQ that was probably very high - at least good enough for MENSA. smile

To be a good composer requires a fair amount of intelligence and Gould indeed composed many (arguably good) works.

Theodore, you asked about other composers/pianists. It's been said that Mozart had one of the highest IQ's of anyone who has ever lived on this planet - alongside Einstein and his camp (Newton, Hawking, Feynman, etc), Shakespeare and his camp, Aristotle and his camp (Socrates, Plato, etc.). Through detailed analysis of his scores, letters, and accounts, historians generally agree that he was one smart cookie!

It's difficult to compare his work to Leonardo da Vinci's for example. They worked in different realms, although Leonardo did play the violin I think. Most would agree that both were immeasurable geniuses, but who was smarter? It's tough to say without a living person taking a modern standardized IQ test.

Anyway, it's nice to know that we have some of the smartest of the smart (Mozart, Bach, Beethoven) in our music camp. laugh


I don't know where you heard this, but it is almost certainly bunk. Standard IQ tests are measures of academic intelligence only. They predict success in school, and that's basically it. They do not measure anything outside of this (that includes musical ability), and that is precisely one of the main criticisms of them. Beethoven, for example was bad at math and there was nothing particularly exceptional about is vocabulary to suggest genius. If he were to take a modern day IQ test he would almost certainty score lower than most of the people on these forums. Are we to think of him as any less of a genius? Hardly.

Furthermore, you can't derive IQ based on writings alone. We have absolutely no idea what the IQ of Mozart, Shakespeare, Aristotle, or any of these guys was, especially Socrates (who did not actually write anything down for the benefit of posterity).

Re: Glenn Gould IQ? [Re: polyphasicpianist] #1783992
11/06/11 02:13 AM
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Originally Posted by polyphasicpianist
Originally Posted by erichlof
+1 BruceD,
Gould's amazing memory, understanding of music, and his use of language indicates an IQ that was probably very high - at least good enough for MENSA. smile

To be a good composer requires a fair amount of intelligence and Gould indeed composed many (arguably good) works.

Theodore, you asked about other composers/pianists. It's been said that Mozart had one of the highest IQ's of anyone who has ever lived on this planet - alongside Einstein and his camp (Newton, Hawking, Feynman, etc), Shakespeare and his camp, Aristotle and his camp (Socrates, Plato, etc.). Through detailed analysis of his scores, letters, and accounts, historians generally agree that he was one smart cookie!

It's difficult to compare his work to Leonardo da Vinci's for example. They worked in different realms, although Leonardo did play the violin I think. Most would agree that both were immeasurable geniuses, but who was smarter? It's tough to say without a living person taking a modern standardized IQ test.

Anyway, it's nice to know that we have some of the smartest of the smart (Mozart, Bach, Beethoven) in our music camp. laugh


I don't know where you heard this, but it is almost certainly bunk. Standard IQ tests are measures of academic intelligence only. They predict success in school, and that's basically it. They do not measure anything outside of this (that includes musical ability), and that is precisely one of the main criticisms of them. Beethoven, for example was bad at math and there was nothing particularly exceptional about is vocabulary to suggest genius. If he were to take a modern day IQ test he would almost certainty score lower than most of the people on these forums. Are we to think of him as any less of a genius? Hardly.

Furthermore, you can't derive IQ based on writings alone. We have absolutely no idea what the IQ of Mozart, Shakespeare, Aristotle, or any of these guys was, especially Socrates (who did not actually write anything down for the benefit of posterity).


Intelligence is definitely correlated with musical talent. Sure, there may be some relatively unintelligent people with extraordinary musical gifts (such as autistic savants or Williams syndrome suffers), but on the whole, smarter people will develop their musical abilities much more quickly than unintelligent people.

Re: Glenn Gould IQ? [Re: Theodore Slutz] #1783994
11/06/11 02:18 AM
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It seems most people are forgetting that it's not just the person's ability, but how he does on a test that he has to sit for.

That can make a difference, and I think it seems pretty likely it would have made a big difference for someone like him.

Re: Glenn Gould IQ? [Re: polyphasicpianist] #1783995
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Originally Posted by polyphasicpianist
Beethoven, for example was bad at math ....


Probably because he had never been taught it, rather than because he was not capable of it.


Re: Glenn Gould IQ? [Re: Mark_C] #1784123
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
It seems most people are forgetting that it's not just the person's ability, but how he does on a test that he has to sit for.

That can make a difference, and I think it seems pretty likely it would have made a big difference for someone like him.
Some people are naturally better at taking tests in general than others or have learned it as a skill. I've never seen any of the courses for SATs or other tests but I can't help think they probably teach more about test taking than what you will be tested for. I was always good at test taking and ended up taking the SAT in 7th grade because I was always scoring in the 90th percentile on the IOWA every year. Exactly why the school systems felt 7th graders should try the SAT at all is beyond me. I don't remember my scores but in the comparisons to the scores of high school seniors who took the test that year I did halfway decent and the only preparation I did for the test was bring a pile of sharpened #2 pencils. I never bothered taking it again because I didn't need to so I'm not sure what 5 more years of school would have done to my score.


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Until then you may want to keep a safe distance.
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Re: Glenn Gould IQ? [Re: Theodore Slutz] #1784140
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Posts: 202
usually, when people talk about high IQ they associate it with physicians and mathematicians, rarely to musicians.


I think there's not a high correlation between musical prowess and high IQ

Re: Glenn Gould IQ? [Re: cast12] #1784208
11/06/11 02:30 PM
11/06/11 02:30 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 6,452
Land of the never-ending music
ChopinAddict Offline
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ChopinAddict  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 6,452
Land of the never-ending music
Originally Posted by cast12

Intelligence is definitely correlated with musical talent.


Actually I know some people with a very high IQ who are very musically untalented and tried to learn an instrument but never went beyond the basics, and in some cases not even that... Maybe they lacked motivation? I have to admit that this always surprised me somehow. shocked On the other hand though they say that Beethoven for example was bad at maths and Mozart was bad at spelling...
Maybe it is safer to say that musically talented people are intelligent rather than the other way around, but I have no proof for that... It is just an opinion.



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Re: Glenn Gould IQ? [Re: Theodore Slutz] #1784218
11/06/11 02:38 PM
11/06/11 02:38 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 202
LA / Montreal
M
MadForBrad Offline
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MadForBrad  Offline
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M

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 202
LA / Montreal
i think you will find him great at some things , horrendous at others. There are many forms of intelligence and that is a weakness of IQ tests not to mention the cultural biases they tend to exhibit although I doubt that would affect a Canadian.

Re: Glenn Gould IQ? [Re: ChopinAddict] #1784224
11/06/11 02:47 PM
11/06/11 02:47 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 202
C
crescendo Offline
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crescendo  Offline
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C

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 202
Originally Posted by ChopinAddict
Originally Posted by cast12

Intelligence is definitely correlated with musical talent.


Actually I know some people with a very high IQ who are very musically untalented and tried to learn an instrument but never went beyond the basics, and in some cases not even that... Maybe they lacked motivation?


learning to play the basics of an instrument, is hardly a problem a person with high IQ would have.

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