Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
What's Hot!!
Hurricane Irma & Our Piano Friends!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Virtual Sheet Music
Download Sheet Music Instantly
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Sheet Music...
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
4th Finger Enigma Resolved!
Schumann's 4th Finger Enigma Resolved!
Who's Online Now
106 registered members (Andrei Kuznetsov, alfredo capurso, Agent88, 36251, Amirhsol, Andy001, 22 invisible), 1,916 guests, and 2 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#1781512 - 11/02/11 12:55 AM Let-off feel - grands vs uprights - any difference?  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,829
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member
sullivang  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,829
Sydney, Australia
We're having a discussion over in the digital piano forum about the differences between (acoustic) grand & upright actions.

Regarding the let-off feel, which is mostly noticable when playing softly, is there anything about the let-off feel in a grand piano that is superior to that of an upright, that allows the player to play very softly? We are not talking about soft repeats (for which double escapement helps on the grand) - just normal, soft playing.

If a grand is better for soft playing, and it's not due to the let-off, why is it better?

Thanks,
Greg.


Middle-aged Jeremy Clarkson acolyte.
(ad 800)
PTG 2017 Convention
PTG Convention 2017 St Louis
#1781605 - 11/02/11 07:46 AM Re: Let-off feel - grands vs uprights - any difference? [Re: sullivang]  
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,748
UnrightTooner Offline
5000 Post Club Member
UnrightTooner  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,748
Bradford County, PA
Yes, there can be a difference in the feel of let off.

At the point of let off both the upright and the grand have the jack tender contacting the let off button. But on the grand the rep lever is also contacting the drop screw. Well, at about the same time... So there is more, or can be more, feel of let off on a grand. Also the jack can be adjusted for what position on the knuckle it pushes before let off. So this is another place where the feel of let off can be adjusted on a grand that is not available on an upright.

But there is a much more basic thing involved. on a grand the hammers are lifted against gravity. On an upright, they are mostly pushed against a spring, but also are near their balance point. In fact, the bass hammers have enough weight that the difference in the balance point is significant.

So I would say that a grand can be better for soft playing because there are more adjustments available, which may or may not be correct. And when these adjustments are at their optimum a grand will be able to be played with more control when play softly because the gravity working more evenly on the hammers than it does on the hammers of an upright.

But good voicing can make a world of difference, too...

Anyway that’s what I think.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
#1781662 - 11/02/11 10:46 AM Re: Let-off feel - grands vs uprights - any difference? [Re: sullivang]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,829
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member
sullivang  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,829
Sydney, Australia
Thanks Jeff - much appreciated.

I read in another thread about the importance of having the hammer to string distance at let-off as small as possible, to aid soft playing. Aside from all the things you have already mentioned, is it perhaps possible for a grand to have a smaller hammer to string distance than an upright?

Greg.


Middle-aged Jeremy Clarkson acolyte.
#1781664 - 11/02/11 10:54 AM Re: Let-off feel - grands vs uprights - any difference? [Re: sullivang]  
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,748
UnrightTooner Offline
5000 Post Club Member
UnrightTooner  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,748
Bradford County, PA
Yes, it is possible to have let off closer to the strings on a grand. But I think the most bang-for-the-buck is good voicing. When the notes sound softer when payed softer, playing softer sounds softer. (Say that 3 times fast wink )


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#1781910 - 11/02/11 06:18 PM Re: Let-off feel - grands vs uprights - any difference? [Re: sullivang]  
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,919
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Supply  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,919
Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Originally Posted by sullivang
We're having a discussion over in the digital piano forum about the differences between (acoustic) grand & upright actions...
Interesting forum to discuss that kind of thing. Over here on the "real piano" forum [am I in hot water now?] f we don't spend too much breath discussing the action on digital keyboards... whistle
...but I think you got the answer to your question...
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
... When the notes sound softer when payed softer, playing softer sounds softer. (Say that 3 times fast wink )
And I'll add: when the louder playing sounds louder, the louder is louder. laugh

#1782218 - 11/03/11 07:09 AM Re: Let-off feel - grands vs uprights - any difference? [Re: sullivang]  
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,748
UnrightTooner Offline
5000 Post Club Member
UnrightTooner  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,748
Bradford County, PA
Where is Yogi Berra when you need him?


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
#1782309 - 11/03/11 10:55 AM Re: Let-off feel - grands vs uprights - any difference? [Re: sullivang]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,829
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member
sullivang  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,829
Sydney, Australia
I'll duck the smarty-pants comments wink and ask another serious question: (it may as well go here, because it's related)

Is it true that piano manufacturers have been trying to eliminate the let-off feel (which is especially noticable for soft playing), because it's considered to be a flaw?

Thanks again, superior ones. smile

Greg.


Middle-aged Jeremy Clarkson acolyte.
#1782548 - 11/03/11 06:05 PM Re: Let-off feel - grands vs uprights - any difference? [Re: sullivang]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,829
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member
sullivang  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,829
Sydney, Australia
I think I can now answer my own question. Here is a patent from Yamaha dated 2008 that appears to be for a mechanism that completely eliminates let-off feel/friction:
http://www.google.com/patents/about/11_237_702_Friction_in_a_grand_piano_com.html?id=SnSbAAAAEBAJ

This says to me that let-off is UNDESIRABLE. It also says to me that most digital piano actions are superior in this regard to real pianos! Ha ha - take that. ;^)

EDIT: Sorry - I've been a bit over zealous I think. Let-off has not been eliminated, but the build-up of friction that is mostly felt when playing softly has been eliminated. (although no mention of the repetition lever resistance when it hits the drop screw in that patent)

Greg. (running away and hiding)

Last edited by sullivang; 11/03/11 06:25 PM.

Middle-aged Jeremy Clarkson acolyte.
#1782565 - 11/03/11 06:26 PM Re: Let-off feel - grands vs uprights - any difference? [Re: sullivang]  
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,369
accordeur Offline
1000 Post Club Member
accordeur  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,369
Qubec, Canada
http://www.mmdigest.com/Gallery/Tech/HickmanAction/analysis.html

I've always felt let-off was a good thing, especially as a piano player since childhood. I like the progressive friction, damper first, then let-off. I feel that it allows for greater control. I could be wrong.

I would love to try a Hickman action, see what the let-off would feel on it. Would it still be as progressive in resistance as a traditional action? I think so as far as the damper is concerned, less with the let-off, but maybe enough to still feel it?

I know for a fact that I dislike digital pianos actions. Especially because they don't have that extra bit of friction/resistance at the bottom of the keystroke.


Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca
#1782569 - 11/03/11 06:30 PM Re: Let-off feel - grands vs uprights - any difference? [Re: sullivang]  
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,369
accordeur Offline
1000 Post Club Member
accordeur  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,369
Qubec, Canada
"If a grand is better for soft playing, and it's not due to the let-off, why is it better?"

Because you are working against gravity.


Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca
#1782922 - 11/04/11 07:55 AM Re: Let-off feel - grands vs uprights - any difference? [Re: sullivang]  
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,748
UnrightTooner Offline
5000 Post Club Member
UnrightTooner  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,748
Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted by sullivang
I think I can now answer my own question. Here is a patent from Yamaha dated 2008 that appears to be for a mechanism that completely eliminates let-off feel/friction:
http://www.google.com/patents/about/11_237_702_Friction_in_a_grand_piano_com.html?id=SnSbAAAAEBAJ

This says to me that let-off is UNDESIRABLE. It also says to me that most digital piano actions are superior in this regard to real pianos! Ha ha - take that. ;^)

EDIT: Sorry - I've been a bit over zealous I think. Let-off has not been eliminated, but the build-up of friction that is mostly felt when playing softly has been eliminated. (although no mention of the repetition lever resistance when it hits the drop screw in that patent)

Greg. (running away and hiding)


Uh, Roland makes a digital piano that has some kind of rubber fingers to simulate the feel of let off. I agree with Jean. The feeling of let off is desirable.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
#1782927 - 11/04/11 08:13 AM Re: Let-off feel - grands vs uprights - any difference? [Re: UnrightTooner]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,829
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member
sullivang  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,829
Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner

Uh, Roland makes a digital piano that has some kind of rubber fingers to simulate the feel of let off. I agree with Jean. The feeling of let off is desirable.


Yes, but that proves nothing IMHO, because some players will want the defects as well, so that it is easy to move between digital and acoustic, for example. I.e - it seems to be a worthwhile goal to make some digital pianos behave as closely as possible to a real piano, even if that means emulating the flaws.

Greg.

Last edited by sullivang; 11/04/11 08:19 AM.

Middle-aged Jeremy Clarkson acolyte.
#1782944 - 11/04/11 08:41 AM Re: Let-off feel - grands vs uprights - any difference? [Re: sullivang]  
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,748
UnrightTooner Offline
5000 Post Club Member
UnrightTooner  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,748
Bradford County, PA
So by the same sort of logic, the "defect" of diminishing volume (decay) is a flaw that is emulated in digital pianos, but not digital organs?

Bah!


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
#1782952 - 11/04/11 08:58 AM Re: Let-off feel - grands vs uprights - any difference? [Re: UnrightTooner]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,829
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member
sullivang  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,829
Sydney, Australia
I can't see anything wrong with my logic whatsoever. Real pianos are still important (very important!), so given this, it seems very worthwhile to make digital pianos that behave as closely as possible to real pianos, so that players can practise on digital pianos when real pianos are not available. Any discrepancy between digital and acoustic will make it more difficult to transfer from a digital to an acoustic, and vice versa.

Another "flaw" that is often carried over to digital pianos is the graduated weight. Is that really something that we all want in a piano action, or, perhaps, is it something that is very difficult to eliminate from real pianos, due to the fact that it has larger hammers in the bass, which are necessary to create the same loudness as the treble notes?

Greg.


Middle-aged Jeremy Clarkson acolyte.
#1782973 - 11/04/11 09:34 AM Re: Let-off feel - grands vs uprights - any difference? [Re: sullivang]  
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,748
UnrightTooner Offline
5000 Post Club Member
UnrightTooner  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,748
Bradford County, PA
Seems like a good question for the digital piano forum.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
#1782979 - 11/04/11 09:41 AM Re: Let-off feel - grands vs uprights - any difference? [Re: sullivang]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,829
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member
sullivang  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,829
Sydney, Australia
I found another patent related to reducing jack/knuckle friction, FWIW:

http://www.patents.com/us-5511454.html

Greg.


Middle-aged Jeremy Clarkson acolyte.
#1783023 - 11/04/11 10:51 AM Re: Let-off feel - grands vs uprights - any difference? [Re: sullivang]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,829
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member
sullivang  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,829
Sydney, Australia
Quote from: http://convention.ptg.org/Class%20materials/FromthePointofView.pdf

"One hallmark of fine regulation is “playing off the jack.”
a. Resting the fingers lightly on the keys at drop/let off contact, press through very
rapidly.
b. Each key should sound, a very light pianissimo, next to impossible to achieve
otherwise.
c. Close let off is the major factor.
d. Some pianists use this on occasion in performance – if the piano is regulated so
that it will work."

So this little "trick" appears to be one advantage of having the build-up of resistance - i.e - without the tactile feedback, the pianist would not readily know how far down to press the keys in order to position them optimally for this style of playing. Very interesting!

Greg.


Middle-aged Jeremy Clarkson acolyte.
#1783034 - 11/04/11 11:10 AM Re: Let-off feel - grands vs uprights - any difference? [Re: sullivang]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 534
TunerJeff Offline
500 Post Club Member
TunerJeff  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 534
Oregon Coast
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fsy5sz17PzU

Try that one. Yamaha has a digital keyboard...which uses a grand-action as the controller. You want a real piano 'feel'? Can't beat this. Lead weights in place of the actual hammer, but the keyboard itself is from a Conservatory-series grand.

Grands generally have a longer key than uprights (better leverage), let-off can be pushed closer to the strings, good knuckles, geometry, and good regulation can make let-off very light in a grand. No comparison; grands have greater control in ppp-playing. When you add the shift-pedal, and the various shadings in the hammer-felt for expression (the shift-pedal is not just on/off) a grand allows for a much wider degree of expression at low levels. Really! It's an aspect of playing/expression/control that digital pianos cannot touch....yet.


Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
Oregon Coast Piano Services
TunerJeff440@aol.com
#1783442 - 11/04/11 11:55 PM Re: Let-off feel - grands vs uprights - any difference? [Re: sullivang]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,829
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member
sullivang  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,829
Sydney, Australia
Thanks again Jeff. (Of course, we now have the AvantGrand, which is presumably a step up from the GranTouch)

Here is another patent for reducing jack/knuckle friction: http://www.patentgenius.com/patent/6232537.html It appears to be sort of similar to the Hickman action, in that it has an articulated jack.

Greg.





Middle-aged Jeremy Clarkson acolyte.
#1783477 - 11/05/11 01:39 AM Re: Let-off feel - grands vs uprights - any difference? [Re: sullivang]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 534
TunerJeff Offline
500 Post Club Member
TunerJeff  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 534
Oregon Coast
Wow! I checked out that link on the 'articulated jack'. It is amazing what people come up with. That one actually kinda makes sense.

After reading through the endless minutia of the patent application I reached the description. Basically; don't scrape the jack across the knuckle for let-off. Just fold that puppy in the center and fold it out of the way. Very nearly no friction at all, it just cracks in half and collapses away from the knuckle. Spiffy!

I note that the guy seems to work for Baldwin...wonder if it will get any use in the real world. Good ideas, with extra parts, means expense. Builders don't like expense or we'd still see lost-motion compensators and working sostenutos in vertical pianos.(sigh)


Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
Oregon Coast Piano Services
TunerJeff440@aol.com
#1783487 - 11/05/11 02:44 AM Re: Let-off feel - grands vs uprights - any difference? [Re: TunerJeff]  
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,919
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Supply  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,919
Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Quote
.... Basically; don't scrape the jack across the knuckle for let-off.
There is the Meingast roller-knuckle, which is an option in Steingraeber pianos. No scraping jack there - the knuckle is a firm felt roller which rotates as the jack escapes. Essentially 0 friction. An interesting feel, but not everyone likes it. It seems some friction is preferable for a controlled touch.

#1783508 - 11/05/11 05:22 AM Re: Let-off feel - grands vs uprights - any difference? [Re: sullivang]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,829
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member
sullivang  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,829
Sydney, Australia
Thanks for the heads up on the rolling knuckle. FWIW, I found this thread which has some discussion about it:
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...1/topic/013110/Number/0/site_id/1#import

Maybe it will slowly catch on.

Greg.


Middle-aged Jeremy Clarkson acolyte.
#1783574 - 11/05/11 09:26 AM Re: Let-off feel - grands vs uprights - any difference? [Re: sullivang]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,829
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member
sullivang  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,829
Sydney, Australia
Found a comment from David Stanwood re: the rolling knuckles:

http://mail.ptg.org/pipermail/pianotech/2003-April/131820.html

Greg.

Last edited by sullivang; 11/05/11 09:27 AM.

Middle-aged Jeremy Clarkson acolyte.
#1783663 - 11/05/11 12:37 PM Re: Let-off feel - grands vs uprights - any difference? [Re: sullivang]  
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 108
sunslight Offline
Full Member
sunslight  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 108
Provo, Utah, USA
For me, IMHO, I like the let-off as close as possible, and some friction (not too much though), so I know where I am. I do use the technique of "playing off the jack." Of course, the jack has to contact the knuckle a little or nothing will happen, but it is ever so slight.

then I thought, but if I am looking for a certain amount of friction to let me know where I am, in a digital piano, I'm just supposing here, it would always be at the same place: the bottom of the key? Thus, I don't need to feel the friction.

However, if you are going to play ppp or an ethereal whisper, would it be possible on a digital? On the grand, once past escapement, the jack can be controlled by amount & velocity of release of the aftertouch, to come back to barely touch the knuckle. If all the friction is removed how will you know where that is?


__________
Estonia 190, high-gloss ebony, fully touchweighted and wonderful.

A painter paints his pictures on canvas. But musicians paint their pictures on silence.

PTG member. BA in music theory; graduate work in musicology, voice & piano major instruments.
#1783684 - 11/05/11 01:06 PM Re: Let-off feel - grands vs uprights - any difference? [Re: sullivang]  
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 25,320
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 25,320
Oakland
There are two, barely noticeable, differences in grand actions. The first is the repetition lever, but it mostly affects how the action feels after the note has been played. The second is that they are usually made to closer tolerances than upright actions.

There is a third, which is much more noticeable, but only happens when the actions are not properly regulated. Upright actions get excessive lost motion right away. Grand actions do not have lost motion unless the action is terribly neglected, which does happen often enough.


Semipro Tech
#1783815 - 11/05/11 05:54 PM Re: Let-off feel - grands vs uprights - any difference? [Re: sunslight]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,829
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member
sullivang  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,829
Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted by sunslight
For me, IMHO, I like the let-off as close as possible, and some friction (not too much though), so I know where I am.


Yes, I think I know what you mean. I do have an instrument with let-off (a beaten up old Wurlitzer electric piano with, I guess, a very simplified real piano action), and I did a bit of testing. When playing soft chords, I have a sense of all my fingers lining up perfectly just before the hammers are released. I.e - I feel like the click is helping to minimise arpeggiation when I want to play all the notes softly and at exactly the same time. Now, whether this is actually helping, or whether it's an illusion, I don't know, but I do like it.
On the other hand, when playing single notes, it feels awkward after my digital piano (that does not have let-off simulation)
I know this test doesn't mean much because this action is light years away from a fine grand.

Greg.


Middle-aged Jeremy Clarkson acolyte.
#1784571 - 11/07/11 09:06 AM Re: Let-off feel - grands vs uprights - any difference? [Re: sullivang]  
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,748
UnrightTooner Offline
5000 Post Club Member
UnrightTooner  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,748
Bradford County, PA
The articulated jack "over-centers". It may reduce friction, but it will increase resistance by momentarily changing the action ratio. Might be good, bad or indifferent.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Moderated by  Piano World 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World)
our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, Digital Piano Dolly, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping* on Jansen Artist Piano Benches, Cocoweb Piano Lamps, Hidrau Hydraulic Piano Benches
(*free shipping within contiguous U.S. only)
(ad)
Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq 6 Out now
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


New Topics - Multiple Forums
Tools and books
by BLTOH. 09/21/17 05:14 PM
History of Western Music
by PhilipInChina. 09/21/17 03:11 PM
Feeling depressed..
by fizikisto. 09/21/17 02:40 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics181,966
Posts2,659,228
Members88,876
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Click Here to
Explore The Rest of Piano World!!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0