Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Let-off feel - grands vs uprights - any difference?

We're having a discussion over in the digital piano forum about the differences between (acoustic) grand & upright actions.

Regarding the let-off feel, which is mostly noticable when playing softly, is there anything about the let-off feel in a grand piano that is superior to that of an upright, that allows the player to play very softly? We are not talking about soft repeats (for which double escapement helps on the grand) - just normal, soft playing.

If a grand is better for soft playing, and it's not due to the let-off, why is it better?

Thanks,
Greg.

Yes, there can be a difference in the feel of let off.

At the point of let off both the upright and the grand have the jack tender contacting the let off button. But on the grand the rep lever is also contacting the drop screw. Well, at about the same time... So there is more, or can be more, feel of let off on a grand. Also the jack can be adjusted for what position on the knuckle it pushes before let off. So this is another place where the feel of let off can be adjusted on a grand that is not available on an upright.

But there is a much more basic thing involved. on a grand the hammers are lifted against gravity. On an upright, they are mostly pushed against a spring, but also are near their balance point. In fact, the bass hammers have enough weight that the difference in the balance point is significant.

So I would say that a grand can be better for soft playing because there are more adjustments available, which may or may not be correct. And when these adjustments are at their optimum a grand will be able to be played with more control when play softly because the gravity working more evenly on the hammers than it does on the hammers of an upright.

But good voicing can make a world of difference, too...

Anyway that’s what I think.

Thanks Jeff - much appreciated.

I read in another thread about the importance of having the hammer to string distance at let-off as small as possible, to aid soft playing. Aside from all the things you have already mentioned, is it perhaps possible for a grand to have a smaller hammer to string distance than an upright?

Greg.

Yes, it is possible to have let off closer to the strings on a grand. But I think the most bang-for-the-buck is good voicing. When the notes sound softer when payed softer, playing softer sounds softer. (Say that 3 times fast )

Interesting forum to discuss that kind of thing. Over here on the "real piano" forum [am I in hot water now?] we don't spend too much breath discussing the action on digital keyboards...
...but I think you got the answer to your question...
And I'll add: when the louder playing sounds louder, the louder is louder.

Where is Yogi Berra when you need him?

I'll duck the smarty-pants comments and ask another serious question: (it may as well go here, because it's related)

Is it true that piano manufacturers have been trying to eliminate the let-off feel (which is especially noticable for soft playing), because it's considered to be a flaw?

Thanks again, superior ones.

Greg.

I think I can now answer my own question. Here is a patent from Yamaha dated 2008 that appears to be for a mechanism that completely eliminates let-off feel/friction:
http://www.google.com/patents/about/11_237_702_Friction_in_a_grand_piano_com.html?id=SnSbAAAAEBAJ

This says to me that let-off is UNDESIRABLE. It also says to me that most digital piano actions are superior in this regard to real pianos! Ha ha - take that. ;^)

EDIT: Sorry - I've been a bit over zealous I think. Let-off has not been eliminated, but the build-up of friction that is mostly felt when playing softly has been eliminated. (although no mention of the repetition lever resistance when it hits the drop screw in that patent)

Greg. (running away and hiding)

http://www.mmdigest.com/Gallery/Tech/HickmanAction/analysis.html

I've always felt let-off was a good thing, especially as a piano player since childhood. I like the progressive friction, damper first, then let-off. I feel that it allows for greater control. I could be wrong.

I would love to try a Hickman action, see what the let-off would feel on it. Would it still be as progressive in resistance as a traditional action? I think so as far as the damper is concerned, less with the let-off, but maybe enough to still feel it?

I know for a fact that I dislike digital pianos actions. Especially because they don't have that extra bit of friction/resistance at the bottom of the keystroke.

"If a grand is better for soft playing, and it's not due to the let-off, why is it better?"

Because you are working against gravity.

Uh, Roland makes a digital piano that has some kind of rubber fingers to simulate the feel of let off. I agree with Jean. The feeling of let off is desirable.

Yes, but that proves nothing IMHO, because some players will want the defects as well, so that it is easy to move between digital and acoustic, for example. I.e - it seems to be a worthwhile goal to make some digital pianos behave as closely as possible to a real piano, even if that means emulating the flaws.

Greg.

So by the same sort of logic, the "defect" of diminishing volume (decay) is a flaw that is emulated in digital pianos, but not digital organs?

Bah!

I can't see anything wrong with my logic whatsoever. Real pianos are still important (very important!), so given this, it seems very worthwhile to make digital pianos that behave as closely as possible to real pianos, so that players can practise on digital pianos when real pianos are not available. Any discrepancy between digital and acoustic will make it more difficult to transfer from a digital to an acoustic, and vice versa.

Another "flaw" that is often carried over to digital pianos is the graduated weight. Is that really something that we all want in a piano action, or, perhaps, is it something that is very difficult to eliminate from real pianos, due to the fact that it has larger hammers in the bass, which are necessary to create the same loudness as the treble notes?

Greg.

Seems like a good question for the digital piano forum.

I found another patent related to reducing jack/knuckle friction, FWIW:

http://www.patents.com/us-5511454.html

Greg.

Quote from: http://convention.ptg.org/Class%20materials/FromthePointofView.pdf

"One hallmark of fine regulation is “playing off the jack.”
a. Resting the fingers lightly on the keys at drop/let off contact, press through very
rapidly.
b. Each key should sound, a very light pianissimo, next to impossible to achieve
otherwise.
c. Close let off is the major factor.
d. Some pianists use this on occasion in performance – if the piano is regulated so
that it will work."

So this little "trick" appears to be one advantage of having the build-up of resistance - i.e - without the tactile feedback, the pianist would not readily know how far down to press the keys in order to position them optimally for this style of playing. Very interesting!

Greg.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fsy5sz17PzU

Try that one. Yamaha has a digital keyboard...which uses a grand-action as the controller. You want a real piano 'feel'? Can't beat this. Lead weights in place of the actual hammer, but the keyboard itself is from a Conservatory-series grand.

Grands generally have a longer key than uprights (better leverage), let-off can be pushed closer to the strings, good knuckles, geometry, and good regulation can make let-off very light in a grand. No comparison; grands have greater control in ppp-playing. When you add the shift-pedal, and the various shadings in the hammer-felt for expression (the shift-pedal is not just on/off) a grand allows for a much wider degree of expression at low levels. Really! It's an aspect of playing/expression/control that digital pianos cannot touch....yet.

Thanks again Jeff. (Of course, we now have the AvantGrand, which is presumably a step up from the GranTouch)

Here is another patent for reducing jack/knuckle friction: http://www.patentgenius.com/patent/6232537.html It appears to be sort of similar to the Hickman action, in that it has an articulated jack.

Greg.

Wow! I checked out that link on the 'articulated jack'. It is amazing what people come up with. That one actually kinda makes sense.

After reading through the endless minutia of the patent application I reached the description. Basically; don't scrape the jack across the knuckle for let-off. Just fold that puppy in the center and fold it out of the way. Very nearly no friction at all, it just cracks in half and collapses away from the knuckle. Spiffy!

I note that the guy seems to work for Baldwin...wonder if it will get any use in the real world. Good ideas, with extra parts, means expense. Builders don't like expense or we'd still see lost-motion compensators and working sostenutos in vertical pianos.(sigh)