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#1758159 - 09/23/11 05:58 PM Ivo Pogorelich plays Rach 2 in Berlin 2007  
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Jaak Offline
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Tallinn, Estonia
Hi,

Despite the excentricism and going very far from normal performance standard, the musicality and artistic personality of Ivo Pogorelich attracts me strongly. I like his attitude and absolute courage to be himself.

Maybe you know this live recording but for me it was a new discovery and quite shocking. I wanted to share.
link is here: http://youtu.be/busLlMy6TQo

What do you think of Ivo Pogorelich at all (then and now)?

P.S. I live in Tallinn Estonia and Pogorelich comes to perform in Vilnius Lithuania in October 24. This is about 600km to go. Would you go to his recital?

GL
Jaak


piano.social - Learn classical piano with Jaak and socialize with other piano students
MA, teacher and doctoral student of the Estonian Academy of Music and Theatre
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#1758168 - 09/23/11 06:29 PM Re: Ivo Pogorelich plays Rach 2 in Berlin 2007 [Re: Jaak]  
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Emanuel Ravelli Offline
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Originally Posted by Jaak
. . .What do you think of Ivo Pogorelich at all (then and now)?

P.S. I live in Tallinn Estonia and Pogorelich comes to perform in Vilnius Lithuania in October 24. This is about 600km to go. Would you go to his recital?


On the strength of this recording alone, no. In fact, no way, no how. I think it was Schnabel who said that real music lies not in the notes, but in the space between the notes. Pogorelich leaves enough space between most of the notes in the Rachmaninoff that you could drive a Hummer through them. (The big one, not the little ones.) I never thought anyone could make that gorgeous music sound like a funeral dirge, but Ivo has done it.

On the other hand, if you asked me that question right after I'd listened to his DG Scarlatti recording, I would answer just the opposite. His touch is quicksilver, his tempi make you want to dance, and the phrasing is just about perfect. For my money, it's a close race between Pogo and Horowitz as to whose Scarlatti recordings should be considered definitive. (OK, maybe Martha too.) I know he's had to endure some awful tragedy in his life, but I sure wish the man who made those wonderful Scarlatti recordings would come back to us.


Phil Bjorlo
#1758171 - 09/23/11 06:35 PM Re: Ivo Pogorelich plays Rach 2 in Berlin 2007 [Re: Jaak]  
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I respect his artistic originality, but in this case, while being different, his super slow performance doesn't bring anything new to the work except boredom, which I never felt before. I suppose performances by him are more like jazz than classical in the sense that there's more real creation and spontaneity going on, but as a result, there's a higher rate of crash and burn.

I'd carefully check out what his exact program was going to be and do my best to hear youtube or other examples of him recently playing those pieces before I traveled that distance to hear him. Earlier in his career, it seems like his eccentricities were more likely to be wonderful; now they seem more likely to be unintelligible.

#1758199 - 09/23/11 07:41 PM Re: Ivo Pogorelich plays Rach 2 in Berlin 2007 [Re: MarkH]  
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Jaak Offline
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Hi MarkH,

Thank you for the reply.

BTW you seem to have a great repertoire processing. Are you performing often, where do/did you learn and are there any recordings of you playing?

Jaak


piano.social - Learn classical piano with Jaak and socialize with other piano students
MA, teacher and doctoral student of the Estonian Academy of Music and Theatre
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#1758201 - 09/23/11 07:46 PM Re: Ivo Pogorelich plays Rach 2 in Berlin 2007 [Re: Emanuel Ravelli]  
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Jaak Offline
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Hi Phil,

Tragedies that is true - homeland, wife.
I think you just hit the spot - this way of playing seems to be a huge grieving.

Jaak


piano.social - Learn classical piano with Jaak and socialize with other piano students
MA, teacher and doctoral student of the Estonian Academy of Music and Theatre
#1758209 - 09/23/11 08:19 PM Re: Ivo Pogorelich plays Rach 2 in Berlin 2007 [Re: Jaak]  
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I like originality. I enjoy hearing a piece played many ways.

This performance leaves me totally baffled. I wouldn't know where to begin to point out what's not working here. Basically, it has no direction at all. I didn't think it would be possible to remove the pull from this piece, but, he's done it. I expect inventive voicings, a new illumination on the prasing, a view on the rhythm. I think he may be going for a magical sparkle, but, to me, it sounds bizzare.

Maybe it's his Phillip Glass impersonation!

However, now I am determined to change how I feel and I will be listening to further recordings of Pogorelich.


Working on: Reworking Bartok's Suite Opus 14, Chopin's Polonaise Op.40, The Military (so much fun!)
#1758227 - 09/23/11 09:20 PM Re: Ivo Pogorelich plays Rach 2 in Berlin 2007 [Re: Jaak]  
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I find this completely unsatisfying as a performance. He stresses seemingly random snippets of melodic fragments or isolated chords whilst reducing everything else to a whisper. If there were a method behind it, I could maybe appreciate the attempt, but there's no rhyme or reason to it. For example, the inexplicable subito-piano in one of the opening chords serves no purpose (is it a nod to Rachmaninoff, the master of the unexpected subito-piano as a means of ratcheting up the tension and excitement? if so, it doesn't work here); the second subject sounds like an erratic right-reading exercise. The rhythmic pulse is entirely lost and the orchestra can't keep up (and who could blame them?). I'm all for fresh interpretations of music, particularly pieces as well-known as this, but this feels like a free-form experiment.

Has anyone ever heard him live? I was talking to a friend who has heard him a number of times but found him to be very uneven in quality: sometimes he would be spell-binding; at other times unpolished, replete with mistakes or just plain eccentric. This performance seems to fall in the last category.

Compare his recording of Gaspard: it's mind-blowing!

#1758238 - 09/23/11 09:38 PM Re: Ivo Pogorelich plays Rach 2 in Berlin 2007 [Re: timbo77]  
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Originally Posted by timbo77

Has anyone ever heard him live?

Yes, in London 11 (or 12) years ago, I seem to have lost the programme. But I recall he was brill.
Quote
Compare his recording of Gaspard: it's mind-blowing!

Indeed it is! And have you heard his Prokofiev 6? (But with apologies, I think Kissin is better.)

I watched the video in the OP twice this evening. It was very depressing. I really don't know what else to say...


Jason
#1758244 - 09/23/11 09:52 PM Re: Ivo Pogorelich plays Rach 2 in Berlin 2007 [Re: Jaak]  
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not somewhere over the rainbow
He has balls and a voice. That being said, I love him in his younger years, I think he's someone very different now. I wish I heard him live. I'd LOVE to have a lesson with him, even just one.. and talk to him, hear his thoughts on various things. He's an incredibly interesting individual. And I'm totally in love with his younger self!

His Gaspard, Scarlatti and Chopin from the 1980s/90s are unbelievable.

Last edited by Pogorelich.; 09/23/11 09:53 PM.


"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth."
#1758255 - 09/23/11 10:11 PM Re: Ivo Pogorelich plays Rach 2 in Berlin 2007 [Re: Pogorelich.]  
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Orange Soda King Offline
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Originally Posted by Pogorelich.
He has balls and a voice. That being said, I love him in his younger years, I think he's someone very different now. I wish I heard him live. I'd LOVE to have a lesson with him, even just one.. and talk to him, hear his thoughts on various things. He's an incredibly interesting individual. And I'm totally in love with his younger self!

His Gaspard, Scarlatti and Chopin from the 1980s/90s are unbelievable.


Agreed on all points, and I'm not surprised you feel this way. wink

#1758306 - 09/23/11 11:55 PM Re: Ivo Pogorelich plays Rach 2 in Berlin 2007 [Re: Jaak]  
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I heard him play Scarlatti sonatas and the Liszt sonata in his prime in the 90's. He also played Islamey as an encore. It was one of the most mesmerizing recitals I have ever attended and I would still go to see him live any time if I had the chance. I also think that some of these eccentric interpretations work very differently in a live performance. Even back then he played the middle section of the Liszt sonata probably two times slower than most people and it sounded just perfect. There is a different "pulse" in concerts like this.

#1758311 - 09/24/11 12:23 AM Re: Ivo Pogorelich plays Rach 2 in Berlin 2007 [Re: Jaak]  
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Keith D Kerman Online content
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I heard Pogorelich play Prokofiev 3rd with Chicago Symphony in the mid or late 80s and it was the best concerto performance I have ever heard. Pogorelich was a god in the 80s and every time I revisit those earlier recordings, I am reminded that he was something remarkable when in his element. His control of sound can make me gasp.

I don't think I could hear him play now. It would be too painful.

Last edited by Keith D Kerman; 09/24/11 12:26 AM.

Keith D Kerman
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#1758340 - 09/24/11 02:58 AM Re: Ivo Pogorelich plays Rach 2 in Berlin 2007 [Re: timbo77]  
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Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted by timbo77


Has anyone ever heard him live?


No, but I'd love to have the opportunity. More for the possibility of a chance to speak with him than to hear him though.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

#1758358 - 09/24/11 06:42 AM Re: Ivo Pogorelich plays Rach 2 in Berlin 2007 [Re: argerichfan]  
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Originally Posted by argerichfan
Originally Posted by timbo77

Compare his recording of Gaspard: it's mind-blowing!

Indeed it is! And have you heard his Prokofiev 6? (But with apologies, I think Kissin is better.)


I also like his Prokofiev 6 AND I also personally prefer Kissin's! Maybe this is how English ears are wired...

#1758453 - 09/24/11 11:46 AM Re: Ivo Pogorelich plays Rach 2 in Berlin 2007 [Re: Jaak]  
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I saw him twice in the 80s--he was staggeringly brilliant. Sadly, this is what he's reduced to these days:



Yama B3
#1758493 - 09/24/11 01:23 PM Re: Ivo Pogorelich plays Rach 2 in Berlin 2007 [Re: Fugue14]  
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The poor man seems to have lost his spirit.


Working on: Reworking Bartok's Suite Opus 14, Chopin's Polonaise Op.40, The Military (so much fun!)
#1759151 - 09/25/11 06:14 PM Re: Ivo Pogorelich plays Rach 2 in Berlin 2007 [Re: LeaC]  
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♪oron♪o, on♪ario, canada...
He is probably sick. Cut him some slack.


♫♫♫ ♫♫♫
YAMAHA C2M PE
#1759165 - 09/25/11 06:40 PM Re: Ivo Pogorelich plays Rach 2 in Berlin 2007 [Re: Jaak]  
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Listen to everything after he returned to the stage after taking a short retirement, and it's not a one-time thing...


Working on:
Chopin - Nocturne op. 48 no.1
Debussy - Images Book II

#1759224 - 09/25/11 08:25 PM Re: Ivo Pogorelich plays Rach 2 in Berlin 2007 [Re: pno]  
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I am in sympathy with him! And it is a shame that some in this industry do go for the throat if they hear that someone is ailing. I did not mean that in a critical way at all.


Working on: Reworking Bartok's Suite Opus 14, Chopin's Polonaise Op.40, The Military (so much fun!)
#1759227 - 09/25/11 08:28 PM Re: Ivo Pogorelich plays Rach 2 in Berlin 2007 [Re: Jaak]  
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Hi Jaak,I was reading about Estonia online. Beautiful country, and it seems like such a good place to live. Part of my family is 3rd generation Lithuanian here in the US.


Working on: Reworking Bartok's Suite Opus 14, Chopin's Polonaise Op.40, The Military (so much fun!)
#1781368 - 11/01/11 06:56 PM Re: Ivo Pogorelich plays Rach 2 in Berlin 2007 [Re: Jaak]  
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Perhaps we should all try to listen to him without our mental image and etiquette for his younger days. Slow and fast is really an illusion, no?
Maybe we should listen to him as we would listen to the piece for the first time.
I don't think he regards Time the same way we do.

#1781372 - 11/01/11 07:01 PM Re: Ivo Pogorelich plays Rach 2 in Berlin 2007 [Re: ecm]  
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Originally Posted by ecm
Perhaps we should all try to listen to him without our mental image and etiquette for his younger days. Slow and fast is really an illusion, no?
Maybe we should listen to him as we would listen to the piece for the first time.
I don't think he regards Time the same way we do.


Nor space, perhaps.


Working on: Reworking Bartok's Suite Opus 14, Chopin's Polonaise Op.40, The Military (so much fun!)
#1781511 - 11/01/11 11:53 PM Re: Ivo Pogorelich plays Rach 2 in Berlin 2007 [Re: Jaak]  
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In addition to concerts in the 80s (among the pieces were Bach English Suite 3, Beethoven Op.111, Rachmaninov Sonata No.2 (original version), Scriabin Sonata No.2, Ravel Gaspard du la Nuit, and Balakirev's Islamey), I saw him about 5 years years ago when he played Beethoven Op.78 (I think), some Rachmaninov, Scriabin, and Liszt. By that point, he had adopted glacial tempos and bizarre articulations--I could not believe it was the same artist.


Yama B3
#1781551 - 11/02/11 02:35 AM Re: Ivo Pogorelich plays Rach 2 in Berlin 2007 [Re: Fugue14]  
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Thanks to Jaak for posting. It seems that some people here are not entirely happy with the changes in Pogorelichs style of playing, and most critics seem not to be to happy with it either. But I am reasonably sure that Pogorelich is enjoying his new style even more than I do myself.


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