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#1776553 - 10/24/11 07:44 PM Bad pin block?  
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Hari Seldon Offline
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Hi!
This is my first post at this forum. I am not a piano tuner, but right now I've been studying the art of tuning by myself and have been trying to tune a piano I bought for tuning purposes only. It started with an idea that I should try to tune my mothers piano which hasn't been tuned for over a decade and nobody plays on the instrument either. So as with many other things piano tuning has become a sort of obsession to me right now, a problem that has to be solved...
So I bought a piano (Swedish brand) for 650 Swedish crowns (about $100)which I now struggle with. Besides bad tuning, I suspect that the pin block is not in good shape. So my questions are: Is there a way to easily inspect the pin block? How can you tell when the pinblock is cracked without disassembling the whole piano? Is it worth to change the pins before you know if the pin block is cracked or not? How much does new pins cost if you change them all? Is it possible to detect loose pins or a cracked pin board aurally?
My piano sounds kind of honkey tonkey, can that come from such pin/pinblock problems i mentioned? I know that you think it's most likely bad tuning behind that honkey tonk sound :-) and that might be true, but I suspect that there are some problems with the instrument too. It's not so receptive to tuning and goes out of tune quickly. I thought one of the main reasons for the honkey tonk sound was that my tuning of the unisons was really bad but even a single string can sound bad, like a German Stuka bomber from WW2.
I expect to get mocked, so you have to flame me hard to hurt me... ;-) I have most respect for some tuners in here. I've listened to some of your work in here and am amazed over the precision you can achieve tuning aurally. I would appreciate if I can get some honest and benevolent answers to my questions.

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#1776567 - 10/24/11 08:04 PM Re: Bad pin block? [Re: Hari Seldon]  
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The best way to assess a pin block is to tune the piano. You may not have the experience to do the assessment, so it would be worth your while to hire someone to do it. Trying to learn to tune on a piano that cannot be tuned is nothing but an exercise in frustration, and so the money that you spend on this will be invaluable. It would also give you the opportunity to observe professional technique, and perhaps, to gain a mentor, particularly if you shop around for a technician who is open to the idea.


Semipro Tech
#1776638 - 10/24/11 10:30 PM Re: Bad pin block? [Re: BDB]  
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Originally Posted by BDB
is to tune the piano. You may not have the experience to do the assessment, so it would be worth your while to hire someone to do it.

If after 2 weeks ago on your piano again appear "funny sounds" this is a bad diagnosis for pinblock

#1776750 - 10/25/11 06:05 AM Re: Bad pin block? [Re: BDB]  
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Hari Seldon Offline
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Originally Posted by BDB
The best way to assess a pin block is to tune the piano. You may not have the experience to do the assessment, so it would be worth your while to hire someone to do it. Trying to learn to tune on a piano that cannot be tuned is nothing but an exercise in frustration, and so the money that you spend on this will be invaluable. It would also give you the opportunity to observe professional technique, and perhaps, to gain a mentor, particularly if you shop around for a technician who is open to the idea.


Thanks for your answer. I suspect I have such a piano you are talking about. I have not spent a fortune on the instrument and the 100 bucks is totally worth my experience so far. After all I've learnt something and had some tuning practice.
In Sweden nowdays people are throwing pianos away, some of them are good instruments. I think the major reason is that people favour digital instruments, which after all have some benefits compared to acoustic ones. I will probably do like many other, throw the piano away, and get another one for hardly no money at all.

My area isn't exactly crowded with technician and I have been talking with a couple of them and I feel that none of them are interested in mentorship. When I hint them that I explore piano tuning by my own I can smell their skepticism and pity. :-)

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#1777212 - 10/25/11 09:03 PM Re: Bad pin block? [Re: Hari Seldon]  
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Bob Offline
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Why don't you try tipping the piano on it's back, and soaking the tuning pins with super thin "superglue". That should tighten the pins enough so you can practice tuning. People in the USA simply pass the old pianos around - I've been called out to the same piano three times in three different homes! We may all regret disposing of all these old pianos one day.

Do you have a piano technician's organization in Sweden? Our Piano Technicians Guild is helpful in many ways. www.PTG.org.

#1777227 - 10/25/11 09:30 PM Re: Bad pin block? [Re: Hari Seldon]  
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Originally Posted by Hari Seldon
people favour digital instruments, which after all have some benefits compared to acoustic ones.

This fact (I agree with you it is a fact) is disappointing to me. I hope I'm not crossing any lines here of appropriateness but I would like to make an analogy to many people apparently preferring internetsex over the real thing.

Cheers,
Kees

#1777244 - 10/25/11 10:14 PM Re: Bad pin block? [Re: DoelKees]  
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Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by Hari Seldon
people favour digital instruments, which after all have some benefits compared to acoustic ones.

This fact (I agree with you it is a fact) is disappointing to me. I hope I'm not crossing any lines here of appropriateness but I would like to make an analogy to many people apparently preferring internetsex over the real thing.

Cheers,
Kees


This made me chuckle a bit, but there is a grey area in regards to digital vs real for many people that I like to promote to my customers...why not have both. I find myself playing my DP more often lately than my acoustics. With a headset on I play as loud as I want and it does not disturb other people in the household. The slight difference for me on the above mentioned analogy is that I don't have to quickly hit the off switch on my DP, if my spouse happens to walk in the room.


Piano Technician
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Niagara Region
#1777425 - 10/26/11 09:25 AM Re: Bad pin block? [Re: Bob]  
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Hari Seldon Offline
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Originally Posted by Bob
Why don't you try tipping the piano on it's back, and soaking the tuning pins with super thin "superglue". That should tighten the pins enough so you can practice tuning. People in the USA simply pass the old pianos around - I've been called out to the same piano three times in three different homes! We may all regret disposing of all these old pianos one day.

Do you have a piano technician's organization in Sweden? Our Piano Technicians Guild is helpful in many ways. www.PTG.org.


I have considered the thin superglue option. I have heard about the method but can't quite comprehend how it works. If I have got it right, a homogeneous metal pin is tightly driven into a thick block of laminated wood (a construction that seems, for a laymen, like you are looking for trouble). When I pour superglue between the metal and wood, doesn't the pin get stuck? I am supposed to being able to turn that pin when I'm tuning. And if I with force succesfully turn the pin, doesn't the glue release it's extra grip between the two materials? I understand that it can't work that way, but how exactly can the superglue tighten the pins and still letting me turn them?

I believe we have an organization but it doesn't seem particularly active.

#1777450 - 10/26/11 10:04 AM Re: Bad pin block? [Re: Hari Seldon]  
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Originally Posted by Hari Seldon
.....

Besides bad tuning, I suspect that the pin block is not in good shape. So my questions are: Is there a way to easily inspect the pin block? How can you tell when the pinblock is cracked without disassembling the whole piano?

.....


The objective way is to measure the torque of the pins with a low range torque wrench and a proper socket - one made for tuning pins. Call your local tuner and ask for an evaluation.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
#1777747 - 10/26/11 05:51 PM Re: Bad pin block? [Re: Hari Seldon]  
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Originally Posted by Hari Seldon
When I pour superglue between the metal and wood, doesn't the pin get stuck? I am supposed to being able to turn that pin when I'm tuning. And if I with force succesfully turn the pin, doesn't the glue release it's extra grip between the two materials? I understand that it can't work that way, but how exactly can the superglue tighten the pins and still letting me turn them?


I wondered about that, too. The answer seems to be that the shear strength of the superglue is surprisingly low, and yet it fills in between the pin and wood creating a much larger area in perfect molded to fit contact, producing more friction. So, you can break the pins loose, and they hold better thereafter.



-- J.S.

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#1777786 - 10/26/11 06:50 PM Re: Bad pin block? [Re: Hari Seldon]  
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Yep, superglue does the trick. I've used it on many, many pianos and it's unbelievable how it can make a loose pin tunable again. I've saved many old pianos that weren't worth fixing and gave it a new lease on life! I don't even put the uprights on their back, the superglue seems to wick right in there.


Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
#1777818 - 10/26/11 07:41 PM Re: Bad pin block? [Re: That Guy]  
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Hari Seldon Offline
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I think I'll try the superglue. How much of that stuff should I use per pin?

#1777886 - 10/26/11 10:17 PM Re: Bad pin block? [Re: Hari Seldon]  
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You won't need to use very much per pin. You'll need to find water-thin CA glue. If you do a search in the Piano World Forums for CA glue, you will find a lot of information about it.


Eric Gloo
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#1777996 - 10/27/11 04:34 AM Re: Bad pin block? [Re: Hari Seldon]  
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Mark R. Offline
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Hari,

You should be able to find the extra-thin superglue at a local hobby supply shop. That's where I found mine. Model builders (e.g. model airplane enthusiasts) use it for joint "wicking", i.e. letting the thin glue seep into a joint that is already in position - and that's exactly what you want to do too.


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#1778207 - 10/27/11 01:05 PM Re: Bad pin block? [Re: Mark R.]  
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Hari Seldon Offline
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Quote
You won't need to use very much per pin. You'll need to find water-thin CA glue. If you do a search in the Piano World Forums for CA glue, you will find a lot of information about it.

Quote
You should be able to find the extra-thin superglue at a local hobby supply shop. That's where I found mine. Model builders (e.g. model airplane enthusiasts) use it for joint "wicking", i.e. letting the thin glue seep into a joint that is already in position - and that's exactly what you want to do too.


Thanks for your help, I really appreciate it. I actually bought a little bottle with a fine spout - Loctite superglue precision before I read your posts. I think it has the right viscosity, but I have to get that confirmed before I try. Found som specifications: Viscosity (ISO 3219) - 50-120 mPas. Waddaya think about that?


#1778241 - 10/27/11 02:38 PM Re: Bad pin block? [Re: Hari Seldon]  
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Another thing I want to share (if anyone is interested) is that my guitar tuning has elevated dramatically since I started to study and practise piano tuning. Understanding the equal temperament, a better tuning sequence, beat comprehension and interval checks has contributed to a consistently better sounding guitar. In fact it sounds better tuning it aurally than using ETD:s. :-)

#1778264 - 10/27/11 03:24 PM Re: Bad pin block? [Re: Hari Seldon]  
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Gee, I can no longer tune a guitar! My lack of understanding of the tolerances keeps me from doing it. I guess it is different stages in the learning process.


Semipro Tech
#1778269 - 10/27/11 03:38 PM Re: Bad pin block? [Re: Hari Seldon]  
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Originally Posted by Hari Seldon
.. it sounds better tuning it aurally than using ETD:s. :-)
No surprise. In the end, the human ear is the judge.

#1778365 - 10/27/11 06:59 PM Re: Bad pin block? [Re: Hari Seldon]  
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BDB tunes his guitar in reverse well......no, let's not go there! grin You put as much super glue on the pin as will soak in. I sometimes do two passes. Don't get the fumes in your eyes or lungs. Use a fan to blow the fumes away from you. The piano can be tuned within 15 min of application - but the fumes will still be escaping, so be careful. There is no viscosity listed on my bottle. It just says "super thin".

#1778566 - 10/28/11 02:29 AM Re: Bad pin block? [Re: Hari Seldon]  
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Originally Posted by Hari Seldon
I think it has the right viscosity, but I have to get that confirmed before I try. Found som specifications: Viscosity (ISO 3219) - 50-120 mPas. Waddaya think about that?


I've seen some super-thin CAs with viscosities as low as 5 cP (5 mPa.s), e.g. this one:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewitem.asp?idproduct=7172
But I wasn't able to find such a low viscosity in my local hobby shop. The one I bought was, if I remember correctly, in the same range as yours. It still looks water-thin if you wiggle the bottle. I haven't used it on a piano, but for several other "seeping in" applications. And it sure seeps in quickly! So I think you should be fine.


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#1778585 - 10/28/11 04:05 AM Re: Bad pin block? [Re: Hari Seldon]  
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Thanks Mark. I've done some research and have ordered a bottle of Loctite 420. I's viscosity I's in the range you mention (1-5 mPa.s). The manufacturer describes it as capillary creeping (literal translation). This should do the job.



#1778588 - 10/28/11 04:32 AM Re: Bad pin block? [Re: Hari Seldon]  
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Definitely!


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1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.
#1783114 - 11/04/11 12:30 PM Re: Bad pin block? [Re: Mark R.]  
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Ok, I now have the glue. Do you think I can bring the piano to it's back by myself? My strength is average and it is what I think you call console piano. Is this one man's job or is it advisable to get assistance?

#1783119 - 11/04/11 12:33 PM Re: Bad pin block? [Re: Hari Seldon]  
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How have you determined if the block needs to be treated? What is the torque of the pins now?


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
#1783127 - 11/04/11 12:39 PM Re: Bad pin block? [Re: Hari Seldon]  
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For the novice at this----when gluing pins on a grand piano, remove the action first and cover the keybed with paper to catch drips.

#1783148 - 11/04/11 01:09 PM Re: Bad pin block? [Re: Hari Seldon]  
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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
How have you determined if the block needs to be treated? What is the torque of the pins now?

I haven't measured the torque but came to the conclusion since the piano is not holding the tuning. Some of the pins feels looser than others, so my guess is that the pins needs to be tightened. What else can it be? I am familiar with setting the pin concept and think I'm doing that fairly good. It is my own piano that I bought for about 100 bucks so I have nothing to lose really.
Originally Posted by Bob
For the novice at this----when gluing pins on a grand piano, remove the action first and cover the keybed with paper to catch drips.

I know how to remove the action and will do it first on my upright to be precautious.

#1783179 - 11/04/11 02:03 PM Re: Bad pin block? [Re: Hari Seldon]  
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Originally Posted by Hari Seldon
Ok, I now have the glue. Do you think I can bring the piano to it's back by myself? My strength is average and it is what I think you call console piano. Is this one man's job or is it advisable to get assistance?


It depends how you do it. If you have an overhead chain hoist or come-alongs, you could rig it solo. If you're just going to brute force it, definitely get some help. I'd tip it back onto a sturdy workbench or some shipping crates or something like that to put it at a comfortable working height. It's also easier to do rather than lowering and raising the center of gravity. At a minimum, have another person helping you tip and lift the bottom, and one -- heavy but not necessarily strong -- to foot the bench so it doesn't kick out from under the piano. Same for the reverse procedure, you don't want to drop it.


-- J.S.

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#1784568 - 11/07/11 08:00 AM Re: Bad pin block? [Re: Hari Seldon]  
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Hari:

I doubt that you have the experience to tell if the pins are really loose or if the piano goes out of tune for other reasons. But if you want to treat the pin block, that is your decision.

A word of advice when laying an upright on it's back without a “tipper”. At a certain point it can become supported by only its back wheels and can run away from you. To avoid this, support the rear part of the piano with wooden blocks before tipping it. (The rear wheels should not be on the floor.) Then the piano will pivot on the blocks and not the wheels.

Last edited by UnrightTooner; 11/07/11 08:10 AM. Reason: clarification

Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
#1784660 - 11/07/11 11:33 AM Re: Bad pin block? [Re: UnrightTooner]  
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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Hari:

I doubt that you have the experience to tell if the pins are really loose or if the piano goes out of tune for other reasons. But if you want to treat the pin block, that is your decision.


Your doubts are not unreasonable. And I know that it is solely my decision. I am not blaming anyone else if this fails badly. This is not a big deal to me, I'm just trying things out for fun. It would be interesting to see a list of the most frequent reasons why a piano goes out of tune faster than what can be considered as normal.
Quote

A word of advice when laying an upright on it's back without a “tipper”. At a certain point it can become supported by only its back wheels and can run away from you. To avoid this, support the rear part of the piano with wooden blocks before tipping it. (The rear wheels should not be on the floor.) Then the piano will pivot on the blocks and not the wheels.

Thanks for your benevolent advice. The piano is already on it’s back and will stay there for a while until my back has recovered after the wrestling match with the piano. wink

Last edited by Hari Seldon; 11/07/11 11:34 AM.
#1784669 - 11/07/11 11:51 AM Re: Bad pin block? [Re: Hari Seldon]  
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Best of luck to you with this project! Again, just a reminder, you don't need a lot on each tuning pin. You can always add more if it's not enough. You can't take it out once it's in there. smile

Be careful of the fumes. If it's an odorless glue, that does not mean there are not still toxic fumes.


Eric Gloo
Piano Technician
Certified Dampp-Chaser Installer
Richfield Springs, New York
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