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How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? #1776160
10/24/11 09:32 AM
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toddy Offline OP
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In general, the Roland keyboards feel good to me but I was rather surprised by the enormous difference between the PHA series:

PHA II Very good indeed - somewhat like a well set up grand, on the light side.

PHA III Even better but not very different from the PHA II (at least on the HP 305 and HP 307 that I tried, despite the supposed extra 'notch' feeling halfway through the stroke. Maybe only kicks in at pp.

PHA Alpha II Terrible - lacks definition, too springy

Now I've just noticed there is also a Roland Ivory Feel-G keyboard too. Anyone able to give an informed comparison?

Last edited by toddy; 10/24/11 11:35 AM.

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Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy] #1776172
10/24/11 09:50 AM
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There's also the PHA III Ivory Feel-S on the FP-7F. I found the escapement on this to be more noticeable than on my CN33 Responsive Hammer keybed.

Reports on this forum say that the 4F Ivory Feel G is sluggish, and I did notice that but only by side by side comparison with the 7F.

Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy] #1776188
10/24/11 10:07 AM
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Hi, Spanishbuddha. Sluggish is the worst type of feel IMO....so quite a bit different from PHA II/III then? I don't quite see where it fits into the range PHA alpha II/ PHA II / PHA III. But from what I noticed, there seems to be a massive difference between the alpha and the better two PHAs.


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Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: spanishbuddha] #1776190
10/24/11 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by spanishbuddha

Reports on this forum say that the 4F Ivory Feel G is sluggish, and I did notice that but only by side by side comparison with the 7F.


for me it is sluggish and more tiring for my hands.
I love action on my RD700GX.

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Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: rob.art] #1776210
10/24/11 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by rob.art
Originally Posted by spanishbuddha

Reports on this forum say that the 4F Ivory Feel G is sluggish, and I did notice that but only by side by side comparison with the 7F.


for me it is sluggish and more tiring for my hands.
I love action on my RD700GX.


Wheres the best place I could get a RD700GX for a decent price? Everywhere I look they going for roughly 2000 pounds lol


Piano; YDP161
Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy] #1776471
10/24/11 06:05 PM
10/24/11 06:05 PM
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toddy, I'd say the 'Ivory Feel G' ranks somewhere in between the previous 'PHA alpha II' and 'PHAII'/'PHAIII' action.

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy] #1776494
10/24/11 06:30 PM
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Thank you James. Bottom line for me then is PHA II if I go for Roland....I'd still love to try out the Kawai CA 13 and CN 33 to compare with Roland's HP 305.


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

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Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy] #1967730
10/02/12 10:13 AM
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According to information I got in a german piano forum, the Ivory feel-g is in fact PHA II with ivory like key tops. The Ivory feel-S is a PHA III with ivory like key tops, but for some reason they market the different versions differently. That could be because they want solid differentiation between the different digital piano models. (If you can provide hard facts proving me wrong, I stand corrected).

In the English catalogues the description is somehow fuzzy in my opinion:
"The RP-301 is equipped with our Ivory Feel-G keyboard which inherits the functions, appearance, and texture of keyboards found on our flagship pianos."

In the german catalogue they seem a bit more specific:
ROLAND besitzt nicht nur eine mehr als 35-jährige Erfahrung im Digital Piano-Bau sondern auch in der Entwicklung erstklassiger Klaviaturen für diese Instrumente. Der natürliche Anschlagwiderstand entsteht nicht durch Federn, sondern einzig durch das Gewicht der Hämmer, wodurch sich der Charakter und die Höhe des Anschlagwiderstands je nach Anschlagstärke und Tonhöhe verändern. Wie bei einem akustischen Klavier wird der Widerstand von den tiefen zu den hohen Tönen leichter.

Außerdem ist er bei hartem Anschlag stärker und bei Pianissimo-Spiel leichter. Die Tastaturen "PHA III", "Ivory Feel-S" und "Ivory Feel-G" verfügen alle nicht nur über eine Elfenbein-artige Oberfläche und Druckpunkt sondern besitzen auch Rolands Tri-Sensor Technolgie mit drei Sensoren pro Taste und Beschleunigungs-Erkennung.

Das sorgt nicht nur für ein exzellentes Repetitionsverhalten sondern in Kombination mit der SuperNATURAL Piano-Tonerzeugung auch dafür, dass alle Nuancen der Spielweise absolut perfekt klanglich umgesetzt werden. Das macht Rolands unverwechselbaren Klavierklang so lebendig und ausdrucksstark.

Bei der „Ivory Feel-G“ Hammermechanik-Tastatur handelt es sich um eine spezielle Tastatur für besonders kompakte und portable Pianos. Drei Sensoren ermöglichen ein erstklassiges Repetitionsverhalten und der Druckpunkt vermittelt das Spielgefühl einer Flügelmechanik.


Roland F-120 DP, AKG K240 MkII HP
Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy] #1967732
10/02/12 10:23 AM
10/02/12 10:23 AM
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Didn't like it. Feels cheap.

Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy] #1967736
10/02/12 10:37 AM
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Hello jhm. When you say that Ivory Feel G is the same as PHA II, do you actually mean PHA alpha II? They are totally different. (PHA alpha II used to be on Roland's smaller or more portable pianos, as is Ivory Feel G, now.)

I briefly tried Ivory Feel G and thought it much better than PHA alpha II but not any where near as good as PHA II, which is similar to (if very slightly heavier than) PHA III, which is on the best and most expensive Rolands.

Again, the information is sketchy so maybe this is only my subjective impression.


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

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Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy] #1967743
10/02/12 10:58 AM
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Hi Toddy,
I'm not mixing it up with PHA alpha II, since I've been trying to research this thoroughly now for a couple of weeks. From the information I got, the only difference between Ivory feel-g and PHAII branded Roland pianos, was the length of the actual key. As mentioned here already they are put in stage piano models and the smaller cabinet model F-120.

From my own testing, I felt that to get a better feeling, you need to get the wooden PHA III-keys with ivory surface, found in e.g. HP-505 and upwards (called PHA III Ivory Feel).

The difference between Ivory feel-g and pianos branded with PHA II was marginal, and could be piano model depending. It's also worth mentioning that the ivory feel-g felt indeed different between different piano models. For instance it felt rather sloppy and sluggish on the FP-4F, but felt excellent on the F-120 (my subjective judgement).


Roland F-120 DP, AKG K240 MkII HP
Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy] #1967749
10/02/12 11:13 AM
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toddy Offline OP
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That's interesting, and quite different from the impressions I got when I was experimenting a few months back. I noted a big difference between PHA alpha II/G Feel on the one hand and PHA II/PHA III on the other.

Just out of interest, which pianos are still being sold with PHA II?


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy] #1967822
10/02/12 03:06 PM
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For wooden keys you need the Kawai GF - Roland doesn't offer real wooden keys as far as I know. Could be wrong ...

I My rating would be (first is the worst):

PHA alpha II
G-feel
PHA II
PHA III

Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy] #1967830
10/02/12 03:19 PM
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ROLAND:

HP 503, Ivory feel-S
FP-7F, Ivory feel-S
FP-4F, Ivory feel-G
HPi-6F, PHA II (Ivory feel)
DP-90, Ivory feel-S
DP-990, PHA II
RP301 / RP301 R, Ivory feel-G
F-120 / F-120 R, Ivory feel-G




Roland F-120 DP, AKG K240 MkII HP
Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: JFP] #1967832
10/02/12 03:23 PM
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You are quite wrong. Several, if not all the PHA III instruments have in fact wooden keyboards. I also find it a bit hasty, to base a rating on what you believe. I think I have to phone Roland up tomorrow, and talk to a product manager, to get this sorted once and for all. (By the way, you forgot Ivory feel-S). wink

Originally Posted by JFP
For wooden keys you need the Kawai GF - Roland doesn't offer real wooden keys as far as I know. Could be wrong ...

I My rating would be (first is the worst):

PHA alpha II
G-feel
PHA II
PHA III

Last edited by jhm; 10/02/12 03:24 PM.

Roland F-120 DP, AKG K240 MkII HP
Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy] #1967833
10/02/12 03:24 PM
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Ivory Feel-G is a development from PHA-Alpha II (the lightweight and low end former Roland action). It has nothing to do with PHA-II, which is heavier and in many respects better.

PHA II and III are almost identical, except for PHA III having a third sensor that makes the action more responsive for such tasks as fast repeated notes. But they feel basically the same (at least in my opinion).

JFP is right: Roland doesn't make (at this moment) wooden actions. The higher actions (PHA-III and PHA-II Ivory Feel) are full plastic but imitating the color of the wood on the side but it's not wood by any means.

Quote
Just out of interest, which pianos are still being sold with PHA II?


PHA-II is no longer used.

Hope this helps :-)

Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy] #1967869
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Well there are some differences of opinion emerging here. I have to say that my impressions are in line with what JFP says, and CarloPiano echos my thoughts exactly (or vice versa smile ).

Which is: PHAII / PHA III keys are all plastic, but some models (on the HP307 for example) have imitation wood walls. I suppose some PHA III keyboards may contain wood, but I've never seen this claim made by anyone - either Roland or otherwise. (Kawai RM & GF keyboards use fully wooden keys and Yamaha use some partially wooden keys, I think.)

Having played on several HP302/305/307 and FP7f models, I find PHA II and PHA III virtually identical in feel, though ALL these models can differ from keyboard to keyboard quite a lot in terms of weightiness.

Every time I've tried PHA alpha II, I've been very disappointed. Ivory G Feel seems to be a significant step up from PHA alpha II, but still lacks the weighty, defined hammer feel of PHA II/PHA III.


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

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Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: CarloPiano] #1967891
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I found the info about the wood now, in Rolands german brochure. I stand corrected on that point. However, when you say that PHA III has three sensors, and that should distinct that model from PHA II you are surprising me, since all current Rolands have three sensors, according to their own marketing material.

[img]http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/827/ivorya.jpg/[/img]

According to Rolands homepage they have indeed PHA II keyboards in current models. (See below example from Roland UK.)

http://www.roland.co.uk/products/productdetails.aspx?p=10277&c=40


Originally Posted by CarloPiano
Ivory Feel-G is a development from PHA-Alpha II (the lightweight and low end former Roland action). It has nothing to do with PHA-II, which is heavier and in many respects better.

PHA II and III are almost identical, except for PHA III having a third sensor that makes the action more responsive for such tasks as fast repeated notes. But they feel basically the same (at least in my opinion).

JFP is right: Roland doesn't make (at this moment) wooden actions. The higher actions (PHA-III and PHA-II Ivory Feel) are full plastic but imitating the color of the wood on the side but it's not wood by any means.

Quote
Just out of interest, which pianos are still being sold with PHA II?


PHA-II is no longer used.

Hope this helps :-)


Roland F-120 DP, AKG K240 MkII HP
Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy] #1967901
10/02/12 05:54 PM
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I have now compared Roland Sweden to the UK, Germany and US. The differences are striking, when it comes to what models are still current, and which have been discontinued. It is not the same all over, that's for sure. smile


Roland F-120 DP, AKG K240 MkII HP
Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy] #1967948
10/02/12 07:56 PM
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Wow. I'm walking in a little late, so I hope this is well received. AFAIK, the Ivory Feel-G is not connected to the previous alpha [PHA (alpha) II] action. It seems to be a completely new action design conforming primarily to the weight/cost restrictions necessary for smaller model Rolands. The progression of compact, lightweight models seems to be the only connection (RP-201 had alpha, RP-301 now has Ivory Feel-G; FP-4 had alpha, FP-4F has Feel-G, etc). The weight of these models in some cases actually went up a pound or two and the feel is ... almost opposite those with alpha.

As jhm observed, the consoles with Ivory Feel-G feel better than the portables with the same spec. Don't know why, but it is not a subtle thing. I don't have a lot of affection for the actions in the FP-4F or RD-300NX, but I do like the F120 or RP301 action. Not every customer chooses them, but in our store, when people vote with their dollars, many are choosing those Rolands over the competitive models and the action is listed as one of the strengths.

PHA II directly progressed into PHA III with the help of 3rd sensor. The PHA III seems to have several nearly identical forms that can usually only be compared side by side and even then with mixed observations. If you have the money, this is the way to go with Roland.

There are a few models still sold with PHA II (w/escapement) but I'd agree they are reaching their sell-by date simply because Roland's product cycle is faster than other makers over the last 5-6 years. For 98% of players, the 2 sensor version offers 0% limitations on what they perform and, if not side by side, offers no significant discernible weakness vs. the PHA III.

IMO, the Ivory Feel-G (in the console models) is the best of the low-mass actions (comparing previous Casios, Yamaha GHS, recent Fatar, previous alpha and a couple of really awful off-brands I've played). It's touch weight is medium, the ivory touch is pleasant, the bottom is soft (not my favorite but cuts down on "thump"), the repetition is quick, the connection to the sound is still quite good, the "escapement" feel is minimal (fine by me). It could use more inertia mid-stroke that the heavyweights benefit from. I think it is good enough to compete with the higher-mass GH in Yamaha's Arius line. From there, the Roland sometimes wins for other features.

I think the PHA III is better in all areas...and should be because it is less restricted by weight/price considerations. I don't mind the thump because I prefer the firm bottom...real keys and key felts don't squish like a sponge.

Casio's new action is another low-mass action. I don't know yet where to rate it compared to the Ivory Feel-G as I see some positives and negatives when comparing to the higher-dollar Rolands.

I hope that answers more of the OP's question.


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