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Max,
I am amazed at your grasp of the English language in just the 4 months that you have been posting. No computer translator could get the subtleties of our language as you have started to do. With this speed of learning, adding our techniques to your own should be easy for you.

I thank you for all your posts, you have certainly woken things up around here and addressed some subjects that have been taboo.

In answer to your question/statement, I think that you are right in that there is no fundamental difference between your tool and ours.
I accept your suggestion of saying T-bar hammer as opposed to T-hammer as a differenciation between the two tools.

What concerns us is its use.

In order to tell the differences in its use, we would encourage you to make clean unisons as demonstrated in the Japanese video and then see how long those unisons stay clean, (still)(not wavering) even through heavy playing. This is how we assess (judge) this aspect of a good tuning from a bad one.

I am not judging your style of unison, that is between you and your customers, but practice this stillness. The act of achieving that stillness is also good for the mind.

I am not telling you that you are wrong, if any of us made a video of our own tuning technique we might just be more than a little bit embarrased. Sometimes, what is apparent in a video does not necessarily show what is being felt in the tuners hands.

With what you have shown us so far, we (I) don't find it possible to assess the differences that you tell us may not be there.

I refer you back to 'unright tuner' where he asks you to tell us what you have learned so far and of your understanding of 'flagpoling'.

I just finished a tour of the 60 or so practice pianos in my care.

I only found one unison worth getting my tools out for and a bit of long steel drift here and there.

I only mention this because the heat has been switched on a few days ago and I was dreading this morning and considering that I took the risk of using nothing but a T-hammer for the corrections an my last go-round.

(I did the concert instuments yesterday, so they don't count).

Oh, and I found myself saying 'Darling' and 'sweetheart' to them as they were behaving so well.

Does anybody else talk to their pianos so lovingly?

I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Dear rXd, I have carefully reads and analyze your words. These are the words Master and I feel in them the support and care. I am always ready for dialogue. I am already absorb correct critic in my address. My path is the path of trial and error. Fate compels to try out new techniques and equipment to achieve the goal. I agree with you that any equipment even made it homemade, it is to be used . As I said before my method is it due to lack of funds for the purchase and operation of the factory hammer. My clients are asked to provide a service and I can not refuse them.
'flagpoled' I do not really understand what it is? If you can please explain.
I learn all that techs of piano writes . I don't want to specify that already received some advice. I would not want someone to hurt my neglect of the techs our forum. If I understand correctly what is written about my method of tuning a piano's tech, it should be noted, I rotate pin in a clockwise direction, and not wildebeest it . Sincerely, maxim_tuner (bodger frome KZ)

When you turn a tuning pin, all the force should be rotating it. It should not bend it forward or backward or the side. Bending it that way is what they are calling "flagpoling," because it bends like a flagpole in the wind.

Dear BDB , If I understand you correctly, then the concept to my method of rotation of pin is not suitable (means "flagpoling". I have need tuning very old upright piano. Handle my T-bar allows you to rotate the two hands simultaneously. Application of force evenly throughout the pin. Thus I care about the pin and pinblock. I keep care about tight contact (pin - wood hole - pinblock)

Max. (Bodger from Kz)

BDB gave a good description of flagpoling.

I like your term 'wildebeest' the pin. It brings to my imagination exactly what we mean. The English (Uk) words wrestplank (pinblock) and wrestpin (tuning pin) come from the same root as the word wrestle, a style of fighting. To wildebeest the pins might just enter the language of technicians over all the world.

The general opinion from your video is that it looks to us that you wildebeest the pin more than we would be comfortable with. Your first step, if you wish to add our techniques to your own, is to simply turn (rotate) the pin with no other motion up or down or sideways (on an upright).

This takes some skill and strength with the tool you are using. if you have the T bar in a central position like our T hammer, as Jeff suggested, it would help acheive our goal.

I have spent the last week using my T hammer as much as I can so it is not impossible except for the very tightest tuning pins. I have previous experience with a T hammer so that helps. A tuning lever would take less strength but it is not as easy as with a T hammer or T bar hammer to feel the exact ammount of unintentional flagpoling.

May I repeat?, we would like to hear some still unisons played from the keyboard of the piano This is the simplest way to check the effectiveness of the technique that you are using.

The object is to tune a piano to a very fine degree and for it to stay in tune at that fine degree as long as possible.

Max,

1) To explain the term "flagpoling"

Look at your video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gQ-ZInLsF4

You are bending the tuning pin down at 1:03 - 1:06. When you release the T-bar at 1:07, you can see the pin return upwards.
At 1:13 you bend the pin down, at 1:15 it returns upwards.
At 1:42 you bend the pin down, at 1:45 it returns upwards.
Then, at 1:47 you bend the pin up, at 1:49 it returns downwards.
Again 1:57 (bend up), 1:58 (returns down), 2:01 (bend up), 2:02 (bend down).

2) To explain "beatless" (still, clean, in tune)

At 2:35 one can hear that the A4 is still not tuned. The note has a "eeeeaaaaaoooouuuu" sound. This is a phase change. The three strings are not tuned beatless.
At 3:43, the F# is not beatless.
At 4:16 (and 6:28), the A4 is still not beatless.
At 5:09, the D5 is still not quite beatless.
At 6:32, the G4 is not beatless.
At 6:43, the C4 is beating quite strongly strongly.

3) To explain why it is necessary to play the note with the piano's hammer

Unright Tooner explained this well:

THANK Mark,You made the timing of my videos. Mark's Timing is a tutorial for young novice tuner. I am your debtor. Thanks again

My dear rxd,From now on, throughout the international practice of piano technicians only 'wildebeest'
Video of my art tuning path with T-bar I shall promise to show, but later. I do not have a digital camera now
maxim_tuner_bodger_from_KZ

Why? If they are out of phase but at the same frequency there will be no beats.

Kees

If I understood Kees correctly, we need a plectrum to pluck at the same time 2 or 3 strings. And find the differents between its. That's the theory. The human ear can discern and eliminate inaccuracies, if this sounds small delay
maxim_tuner_bodger

True, but out of phase at the same frequency causes cancellation and reduces the sound output. Probably not important, though, since it's beats you're listening for.

The cause of beats is that a slight difference in frequencies makes them go back and forth between adding and cancellation.

True, there would be no beats IF you could get them to the exact same frequency. But it is difficult to get that last 1/4 or ½ cent. When they are struck at the same time and are in phase, then they couple even though separately they are not quite at the same frequency. There is a "tsiinnggg" sound at the attack that can be heard. And I have heard some recordings where, I believe, the unisons were tuned to just barely couple. It can make the melody really stand out.

This can be observed when a hammer is not well mated to the strings. It is much harder, or impossible, to get a good unison and it will go out quicker. This coupling is also why false beats can often be reduced or eliminated with careful unison tuning. That is what I believe, anyway.

[Edit:] This may also be why unisons are not tuned with ETDs. I don't know how a machine could recognise and guide the tuning of coupled strings.

Wasn't there an article on this in Scientific American in '70's?

This is also the reason I check for noisy note termination(dampers) with the shift pedal down. If they're gonna b noisy at all, that's when they're at their most noticeable.

"True, there would be no beats IF you could get them to the exact same frequency"

But if strings have false beats, you often tune the three strings at different freq. to get the chore beatless.

In older Steinway O grands the speaking lenghts of the last wounded strings at the break, can differ quite much from 6 - 11 mm in one chore. If those strings are tuned at the same freq. the do beat terrible. They must be tuned at different freq, which we automatically do when tuning aurally. When checked with a program it becomes clear that they are at different freq. but beatless together.
I guess it is the same in other instruments too.

This could also be used as an argument for tuning with a plectrum. If the strings are not at the exact same frequency but you rely on the coupling to pull them in tune, a small change in tension will take them out of the coupling range and you'll have an off unison.

However if you tuned them more accurately to the same freq. by plucking them, the unison would be even better with the hammer due to the string coupling, and more stable (as you have more "wiggling room").

Finally when plucking, you can more easily excite the higher harmonics, leading to higher accuracy. First because the nature of the plucking excitation causes a more bright sound even when done at the same location as the hammer, second because you can pluck closer to the termination to get the higher harmonics.

I would think the reasons not to pluck are 1) it is too time consuming and 2) if the strings in the unison do not quite match you have to go for the "best sound" which you can get only by listening to how it actually sounds with the hammer.

Kees

Doel:

I always enjoy your objective outlook. Truly!

I have zero ETD experience. If they were appropriate for unison tuning, it would either be recommended to do so or tuners would anyway.

And I am not so sure that higher harmonics lead to higher accuracy. The higher the partial the more affected by iH. And if there is a slight difference in iH the difference will be greater with higher partials.

BRAVO, Kees!

think that's debatable. I do not have such a practice

that article about?