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Liszt vs Clara Schumann #1771342
10/15/11 10:58 PM
10/15/11 10:58 PM
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 74
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Veganpilot Offline OP
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Veganpilot  Offline OP
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What do they disagree about? If they had an argument, what would they argue about? Why do they hate each other?


Liszt is my favourite composer :P
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Re: Liszt vs Clara Schumann [Re: Veganpilot] #1771378
10/16/11 12:35 AM
10/16/11 12:35 AM
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Atlanta
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Minaku Offline
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Mm, I'll see if I can be brief about this, in part because the intricacies of their relationship aren't known to me. There were several main reasons why Clara didn't like Liszt. In a nutshell, they were his music, his relationships with Brahms and Robert, his company, and their careers. Both Liszt and Clara Schumann changed the piano recital in dramatic ways.

Now, if I'm remembering this correctly it was Clara who held animosity towards Liszt, but it was not wholly reciprocated. Robert Schumann and Liszt ended up friends, if not close ones, and Robert dedicated the fantasie in C to him. Really, I wouldn't call what Clara and Liszt had hatred at all. I would call it a rivalry and the occasional clash of very strong personalities.


Pianist and teacher with a 5'8" Baldwin R and Clavi CLP-230 at home.

New website up: http://www.studioplumpiano.com. Also on Twitter @QQitsMina
Re: Liszt vs Clara Schumann [Re: Veganpilot] #1771397
10/16/11 01:28 AM
10/16/11 01:28 AM
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jeffreyjones Offline
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When you think about both Clara and Chopin's thoughts on Liszt on a composer, realize that when Liszt was at the height of his fame, he hadn't yet written the great works that we know him for today. The Annees, the Harmonies Poetiques et Religieuses, Un Sospiro, the final version of the Transcendental Etudes, the Sonata in B minor, all came after he retired from performing.

Re: Liszt vs Clara Schumann [Re: Veganpilot] #1771401
10/16/11 01:49 AM
10/16/11 01:49 AM
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Pennsylvania
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Cheeto717 Offline
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Yet, even the B minor sonata couldn't stop Brahms from taking a snooze!


"I was obliged to be industrious. Whoever is equally industrious will succeed equally well."

J.S. Bach
Re: Liszt vs Clara Schumann [Re: Veganpilot] #1771423
10/16/11 04:11 AM
10/16/11 04:11 AM
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wr Offline
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Originally Posted by Veganpilot
What do they disagree about? If they had an argument, what would they argue about? Why do they hate each other?


If you ask those questions, you probably know the answers. It's kind of difficult to find out the one without finding out about the other.

Re: Liszt vs Clara Schumann [Re: Veganpilot] #1771432
10/16/11 04:58 AM
10/16/11 04:58 AM
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Los Angeles, CA
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daro Offline
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Originally Posted by Veganpilot
What do they disagree about? If they had an argument, what would they argue about? Why do they hate each other?

They had profound differences in aesthetic outlook, but at first that hadn't stopped the Schumanns and Liszt from being friends. Then Bob resigned as editor of the Neue Zeitschrift fur Musik and whereas he had once been the David fighting the Philistines, he watched as the new editor Franz Brendel championed Liszt and his School and the world now saw the Schumanns and their Circle as the Philistines waging outrage on the Davids across the way. And then, as it always seems to do, occurs that fateful night in 1848 when Clara arranges a dinner in Liszt's honor, and the honoree shows up late, and perhaps more than a bit drunk, along with his new best buddy Dickie Wagner, and just by being his boisterous rockstar self, he and Dickie, who was already becoming known as the man who will not shut up, pretty much put the kibosh on Clara's vision of a lovely evening spent listening to her play Bob's piano quintet, and though she eventually does get to play it, Frankie goes ahead and calls it "Leipzigerisch", that is to say, reactionary Philistine stuff, and then Frankie goes ahead again and makes some flippant remark in which he compares Mendelssohn unfavorably to Meyerbeer, which Dickie probably found confusing, but since Mendelssohn had unfortunately died only around 6 months earlier and had been one of Bob's closest friends, Bob naturally took some mighty serious umbrage and grabs Frankie with intent to commit mayhem, and said Frankie, along with Dickie, is soon shown the door, which it was hoped would never be darkened by the likes of them again.

A year goes by, and Frank tries to repair the damage. Bob 'n' Clara will have none of it. Frank invites Bob to the Altenburg where he says that not only a good piano but people who hold him in esteem await him. Bob refuses to go. Frank continues to champion Bob's work, including giving the world premiere of Manfred. Not a peep from Bob 'n' Clara. Frank dedicates a little bagatelle called the B minor Sonata to Bob. Still nothing but coldness. Then Bob tries to become a fish, and a distraught and financially imperiled Clara reaches out to Frank for help. He sets up gigs for her, including one where he conducts as she plays Bob's concerto. Clara sends not a word of thanks. Frank writes a big article praising Clara to the skies in the Neue Zeitschrift hoping to ensure steady work for her. No thanks from Clara. A couple of years later Frank is chosen to conduct the Mozart centenary celebration in Vienna. Clara is asked to perform a concerto. Clara refuses, and she and Frank never see each other again. Clara tells Joseph Joachim, "I despise Liszt to the very depths of my soul."

Many, many years later, Liszt writes in response to a question from his biographer Lina Ramann, that the events of that "very agitated evening" in 1848 were all his fault. All the fallout, though, was not, for as the War of the Romantics raged, it would be the implacability of the Bob 'n' Clara Schumann/Joachim/Brahms Brigade that caused the most damage to both sides.

Re: Liszt vs Clara Schumann [Re: Veganpilot] #1771460
10/16/11 07:48 AM
10/16/11 07:48 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
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Pacific Northwest, US.
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argerichfan Offline
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Originally Posted by Cheeto717
Yet, even the B minor sonata couldn't stop Brahms from taking a snooze!

Sorry, I've always found that difficult to believe!

Originally Posted by Minaku
Now, if I'm remembering this correctly it was Clara who held animosity towards Liszt, but it was not wholly reciprocated.

But Liszt certainly wasn't above getting his digs in. He reportedly said 'If you want to hear Schumann's works as they should not be played, listen to Clara.'


Jason
Re: Liszt vs Clara Schumann [Re: Veganpilot] #1771468
10/16/11 08:45 AM
10/16/11 08:45 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 4,983
boston north
lilylady Offline
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dara, (EDIT - sorry, daro)

Quite an interesting play you wrote there!

Last edited by lilylady; 10/17/11 06:48 AM.

"Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and life to everything."
Re: Liszt vs Clara Schumann [Re: lilylady] #1771473
10/16/11 09:14 AM
10/16/11 09:14 AM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,791
Ann Arbor, MI
jazzyprof Offline
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Originally Posted by lilylady
dara,

Quite an interesting play you wrote there!

It was daro.

Quite interesting. And yes, it sounds like a script for a Hollywood movie! Ah, I see daro lives in Los Angeles...maybe he writes screenplays. smile


"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP
Re: Liszt vs Clara Schumann [Re: argerichfan] #1771562
10/16/11 12:19 PM
10/16/11 12:19 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 219
United Kingdom
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Derek Hartwell Offline
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Originally Posted by argerichfan
Originally Posted by Cheeto717
Yet, even the B minor sonata couldn't stop Brahms from taking a snooze!

Sorry, I've always found that difficult to believe!


You may find it difficult to believe, but it is well documented.


Music Teacher (Piano/Theory/Musicianship)
Re: Liszt vs Clara Schumann [Re: Minaku] #1771565
10/16/11 12:28 PM
10/16/11 12:28 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 219
United Kingdom
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Derek Hartwell Offline
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Originally Posted by Minaku

Now, if I'm remembering this correctly it was Clara who held animosity towards Liszt, but it was not wholly reciprocated. Robert Schumann and Liszt ended up friends, if not close ones, and Robert dedicated the fantasie in C to him.


And Liszt reciprocated by dedicating his Piano Sonata in b minor to Schumann, but,sadly, Schumann never got to know about that for he was already mentally ill in an asylum and I understand that Clara crossed out the dedication ! To me, that seems spiteful.


Music Teacher (Piano/Theory/Musicianship)
Re: Liszt vs Clara Schumann [Re: Derek Hartwell] #1771568
10/16/11 12:31 PM
10/16/11 12:31 PM
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Damon Offline
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Originally Posted by Derek Hartwell
Originally Posted by argerichfan
Originally Posted by Cheeto717
Yet, even the B minor sonata couldn't stop Brahms from taking a snooze!

Sorry, I've always found that difficult to believe!


You may find it difficult to believe, but it is well documented.


That depends on how you define well documented. There are many things that can contribute to the likely-hood of dozing off that are maybe left out of the several accounts. It's my favorite piece and I've dozed off listening to it. I could be wrong but I think a-fan objected to the idea that the Sonata itself put Brahms to sleep. I tend to share that doubt.

Re: Liszt vs Clara Schumann [Re: Veganpilot] #1771663
10/16/11 03:38 PM
10/16/11 03:38 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,546
US
sophial Offline
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I think there was also an element of, dare I say, some jealousy that a number of performers including Clara had towards Liszt. She wrote at one point that his playing made her feel like a student and that there was an otherworldly quality to it. He was also a large personality, lived with less concern about social convention, and dared to break musical rules and precedents-- Clara seemed to be much more of a "color inside the lines" kind of musician and likely personality as well. I think the animosity was much more from her towards him. Liszt to my knowledge had no personal dislike of Clara, but took a kind of bemused approach to her style of piano playing and interpretation which was so much more conventional and tradition-bound than his own or that which he taught.

Sophia

Re: Liszt vs Clara Schumann [Re: jazzyprof] #1771781
10/16/11 07:39 PM
10/16/11 07:39 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 180
Los Angeles, CA
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daro Offline
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Originally Posted by jazzyprof

It was daro.

Quite interesting. And yes, it sounds like a script for a Hollywood movie! Ah, I see daro lives in Los Angeles...maybe he writes screenplays. smile


Fact is, it's illegal to rent an apartment in L.A. without providing proof of income and a script. Seriously, though, I actually did write a screenplay way, way back in the last millenium, along with a couple of other literary endeavors, all of which were thoughtfully considered for rejection by some of the biggest names in the biz. (In 2007, I appropriated the word "screenplay" for use as the title of a CD, with marginally more success). More recently, I've toyed with the idea of writing a film about Gottschalk, but even though he only lived to the age of 40, his life was so filled with adventure that it would probably need a miniseries to do it justice.

Re: Liszt vs Clara Schumann [Re: Derek Hartwell] #1771805
10/16/11 08:26 PM
10/16/11 08:26 PM
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Pacific Northwest, US.
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argerichfan Offline
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Originally Posted by Derek Hartwell
Originally Posted by argerichfan
Originally Posted by Cheeto717
Yet, even the B minor sonata couldn't stop Brahms from taking a snooze!

Sorry, I've always found that difficult to believe!


You may find it difficult to believe, but it is well documented.

Give me your sources. It is NOT well documented at all, no one really knows what happened when Brahms and Liszt met. It makes no intuitive sense to me that Brahms would have ever slept when Liszt played the piano. But when Liszt sight-read the Brahms Eb minor Scherzo -quite a difficult piece for anyone- maybe Brahms was a bit dizzy. No Starbucks back then...


Jason
Re: Liszt vs Clara Schumann [Re: Damon] #1771806
10/16/11 08:27 PM
10/16/11 08:27 PM
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argerichfan Offline
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Originally Posted by Damon
I could be wrong but I think a-fan objected to the idea that the Sonata itself put Brahms to sleep. I tend to share that doubt.

thumb


Jason

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