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Re: Anybody Deliberately Tune Pure Twelfths? [Re: UnrightTooner] #1766306
10/07/11 06:35 AM
10/07/11 06:35 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,903
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline OP
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Erich:

I was very happy with how the Kimball Console turned out! It was the best any of them have turned out for me. smile In case you don’t know, the break is at C#3-D3 with the next two notes being wound bichords and the next two after that being unwound bichords. Best I can figure, the unwound bichords drop in iH, then the wound bichords on the treble bridge rise in iH and then the bass drops in iH again. So tuning to get progressive M3s across this break is a train wreck and I did not try. But each combination was progressive to itself, which was only two chromatic intervals each.

So I tuned a F2-C4 temperament with 5ths and 8ths. I could have used a few more notes above C4 to make things easier. I am thinking of trying a two-octave 12th based sequence. With an A and a C fork that gives many possibilities: D2-D4, F2-F4, A2-A4, C3-C5, D3-D5, and F3-F5. I better settle on just one for sanity sake. crazy It will probably be A2-A4.

Um… since you are not actually tuning 12th, but are instead tuning other intervals to arrive at virtually pure 12ths, I can understand how the RBI based temperament sequence would work for you. If instead you were tuning pure, pure 12ths it may be a different story.

Mr. Stopper would probably be glad to sell you one of his tools: http://www.piano-stopper.de/html/onlypure_tuning.html


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
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Re: Anybody Deliberately Tune Pure Twelfths? [Re: UnrightTooner] #1766374
10/07/11 09:23 AM
10/07/11 09:23 AM
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partistic Offline
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I tried tying something on my arm and tuning big intervals. I used plastic straps and the thing you use to attach a shelf to a concrete wall. I even tried tuning triple octaves and P19's. It was definitely an interesting experience, as an amateur tuner it helped a lot to actually tune them while listening to be able to hear and make sense of the different partials, eg the first coinciding partial versus the second of the double octave or P19 etc.

Re: Anybody Deliberately Tune Pure Twelfths? [Re: UnrightTooner] #1766473
10/07/11 12:56 PM
10/07/11 12:56 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,903
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline OP
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In case anybody cares, here's the most logical way I could come up with for setting a 2 octave 12th temperament:

A2 to A4 with 12ths, 8ths and 5ths:

A4 to Fork
D3 to A4 (P12)
D4 to A4 and D3 (P5, P8)
G3 to D4 (P5)
G4 to G3 (P8)
A3 to D3 and A4 (P5, P8)
E4 to A3 (P5) - 1st RBI
A2 to E4 (P12)
E3 to A2 and E4 (P5, P8)
B3 to E3 (P5)
F#4 to B3 (P5)
B2 to F#4 (P12)
F#3 to B2 and F#4 (P5, P8)
C#4 to F#3 (P5) – 1st inside/outside
G#4 to C#4 (P5)
C#3 to G#4 (P12)
G#3 to C#3 and G#4 (P5, P8)
D#4 to G#3 (P5) – 1st chromatic M3s
D#3 to D#4 (P8)
A#3 to D#3 (P5)
F4 to A#3 (P5)
A#2 to F4 (P12)
F3 to A#2 and F4 (P5, P8)
C4 to F3 and G4 (P5, P5)
C3 to G4 (P12)


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Anybody Deliberately Tune Pure Twelfths? [Re: UnrightTooner] #1766560
10/07/11 04:41 PM
10/07/11 04:41 PM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 445
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erichlof Offline
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 445
Hi Jeff,
Thanks for the link to the 12th spanner tool. I might ask for one for Christmas (what a gift to get huh?).

Glad to hear that you had a good experience on the Kimball with your new approach. Also thanks for the temperament sequence. I just might give your method a try on my small Brook Mays spinet piano where I teach.

Yes, I use octaves just so I can play them with one hand and tune with the other. But I really do use the 12ths while expanding the temperament, because those are the only intervals I rely on for accuracy. Like I mentioned before, they give me very nice sounding progressive 10ths and 17ths up and down the piano, but I do not tune with the RBI's - they are an afterthought.

However, with the temperament, I'm still relying on the Stebbins RBI method of getting the width of the initial 3rd ladder, so I guess like you said, it's not ONLY a pure 12th sequence - it is a hybrid of sorts. But, maybe I will try yours out just to see if I can get smooth results like you did on the Kimball.

Thanks again for the sequence, links and info!

-Erich

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Re: Anybody Deliberately Tune Pure Twelfths? [Re: UnrightTooner] #1767137
10/09/11 12:44 AM
10/09/11 12:44 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,564
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rXd Offline
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Hi. Jeff.
There was a small model of grand piano from the manufacturer I worked for in the '70's that had a tremendous bass for a small piano but very finicky to tune. It was impossible to line up the 12ths in the bass and have everything else line up. Interesting to see Stoppers device. I made one out of a piece of 1"x 2" with 2 half inch holes drilled 2 octaves apart and an upright bass hammer force fitted into each of them. A real square peg on a round hole. Anyone who's done woodframe construction knows they will stay there forever without glue. Not as elegant as the one photograph earlier on this thread but with a bit of champfering and a lik o paint, a rugged tool.
I hold it so that one finger of the hand holding it, anywhere along its length, can add any note between the 2 octaves.
Usually it was the 12th.
I remembered this yesterday as I tuned this same model piano with the same problems. I wish I had my tool with me. There was no sostenuto to help me with the larger intervals.
I sometimes add the 5th to my bass octaves when tuning. If everything up to that point was done right, including the design of the piano, my 12ths will line up. Adding the 5th is a quick check but does not substitute for checking the octave and 5th seperately as playing them together can mask faults in the seperate intervals. I use 10ths and17ths a lot because I find them easier to hear in noisy environments.
Use of the 12th will add just enough stretch to the treble octaves except that, here and there, it will make my double octave flat in some scales so I am always checking with other intervals. As a result, in quick work, it is low on my proirites of checks or I would have responded this thread earlier. That's not to deny it's use as you all describe it.


Last edited by rxd; 10/09/11 04:41 AM.

Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


Re: Anybody Deliberately Tune Pure Twelfths? [Re: UnrightTooner] #1767660
10/09/11 11:09 PM
10/09/11 11:09 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,626
Philadelphia area
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Dave B Offline
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,626
Philadelphia area
UprightTuner , I strongly suggest trying the "A" fork. It offers a consistent reference note that is generally accepted by all instrumentalists, and with this in combination it works well as a reference note to different temperament octaves. A recent example is tuning a Steinway "D" and a ~ 6' Kohler & Cambell together in a teaching studio. The Steinway "D" accepts an A3-A4 temperament comfortably and the K&C has a break before A4, so a D3-D4 temperament or an F3-F4 fits comfortably in the scaling. With a bit of luck the two pianos played well together.


"Imagine it in all its primatic colorings, its counterpart in our souls - our souls that are great pianos whose strings, of honey and of steel, the divisions of the rainbow set twanging, loosing on the air great novels of adventure!" - William Carlos Williams
Re: Anybody Deliberately Tune Pure Twelfths? [Re: DoelKees] #1768068
10/10/11 02:13 PM
10/10/11 02:13 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,501
Vancouver, Canada
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Vancouver, Canada
Jeff:

The tunelab value 13.18 (instead of Youngs 16) was obtained from measurements on a Kawai 6'8" grand. What it is on your piano I don't know so your 4:1/3:1 crossing may exist after all.

Kees

Re: Anybody Deliberately Tune Pure Twelfths? [Re: DoelKees] #1768303
10/10/11 09:02 PM
10/10/11 09:02 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,501
Vancouver, Canada
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Originally Posted by DoelKees
Jeff:

The tunelab value 13.18 (instead of Youngs 16) was obtained from measurements on a Kawai 6'8" grand. What it is on your piano I don't know so your 4:1/3:1 crossing may exist after all.

Kees


PS If you (or anyone else) wants to check these numbers on real piano's all you need is a laptop, a free trial version of tunelab, and (very simple) instructions from me. Let me know. I tried on a few pianos today and fund values are in accord with the tunelab value 13 +/- 2.

Re: Anybody Deliberately Tune Pure Twelfths? [Re: UnrightTooner] #1769118
10/12/11 06:57 AM
10/12/11 06:57 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,903
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline OP
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UnrightTooner  Offline OP
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Bradford County, PA
Doel:

My "laptop" is where my boy sits when I read to him. wink

I try to avoid gadgets because they are a time vacuum, and yet I get mesmerized by mathematical gadgets. This whole thing with the beatrates in the last octave is one of them. Who can hear it, anyway?

Right now my attention is on tuning 12ths across the break. What a pain, but what a sound! It looks like an F2-F4 temperament is going to win out because of where the break is on old uprights. That means a C-fork after all. But then I may switch to A2-A4 on smaller pianos. I don't know yet. It is tough switching gears from extending a 12th up a 4th and extending it down a 4th.

It’s kind of strange that the choice of tuning 12ths across the break with 5ths and 8ths is based not on mathematics, just common sense.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Anybody Deliberately Tune Pure Twelfths? [Re: UnrightTooner] #1769543
10/12/11 09:27 PM
10/12/11 09:27 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,501
Vancouver, Canada
DoelKees Offline

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DoelKees  Offline

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Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
It’s kind of strange that the choice of tuning 12ths across the break with 5ths and 8ths is based not on mathematics, just common sense.

I think many people would consider your "common sense" to be mathematical/physical/practical intuition. Not very common to have I think.

Anyways, it seems you appreciate the value of synergy between theory and practice and you went to the considerable effort of writing a simulator to try out ideas. I am merely pointing out it's relatively easy to make your simulator more realistic by using tunelab's values of the modified Young constants or even better measuring your own.

This of course does not imply by any means that I think you "should" do that.

Cheers,
Kees

Re: Anybody Deliberately Tune Pure Twelfths? [Re: UnrightTooner] #1769784
10/13/11 06:50 AM
10/13/11 06:50 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,903
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline OP
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UnrightTooner  Offline OP
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Bradford County, PA
Doel:

You are very right. It is something I can and should do. I apologize for any inclination I have to take my frustration out on you. I should be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath. Thanks for making me realize this.

A little OT: I am presently involved in re-writing the front end to a database and have gone the loooong way around back to the type of front end that I started with. The other types just did not have the features I was hoping for regardless of the work-arounds that I tried. I am concerned that MS will do some kind of update in the future that will make what I have now perform in unexpected ways. It has happened before especially with Autocad, which I need to unwrite from most of the front end. The original needs some other modifications, anyway. Programming is something I can and should do, but not something I enjoy...

Anyhoo, if (sigh, when... ) I rewrite the simulator I will try to make it a standard .exe file that anyone can use.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Anybody Deliberately Tune Pure Twelfths? [Re: UnrightTooner] #1789324
11/15/11 07:38 AM
11/15/11 07:38 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,903
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline OP
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In case anyone is interested:

The double octave sequence just wasn’t working all that well and a particular Gulbransen spinet really put me through the wringer! So now I am back to tuning a D3-A4 temperament.

I thought I would prefer a double octave temperament because it would give me usable chromatic M3s below or straddling the break. It does, but they are not as useful as I thought, especially when dealing with poorly wound strings. Having even just one note below the break is helpful, though. And if the break is below D3, the break isn’t going to be much of a problem anyway.

But I noticed a pair of checks available toward the beginning of the sequence that I didn’t notice before. Starting from A4, if you go down a 5th, down a 5th, up an 8th you end up at G4 and have an 11th (octave and 4th) with D3. Likewise from D3, if you go up a 5th, up a 5th, down an 8th you end up at E3 and have an 11th with A4.

So here is a pair of 11ths one whole step apart that completes a self-checking circular mini-temperament (as does a set of CM3s…) which includes a dependable 8 bps RBI (M6 G3-E4). Theoretically, these 11ths should be wide and have a slow beat. But, since the partial match is 8:3, iH can have a big say in what actually happens. Just how much and in what direction iH affects the 11th may be a bit unpredictable, but if it howls like a banshee or if they beat very differently without transiting a scaling change, then there is room for improvement. They should end up virtually pure.

Btw the RBI test for an 11th is m6/M6.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
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