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Can anyone there help?
I am frustrated - no matter how hard I try I just can't seem to get to stage where I can play anything without mistakes - how can I finish pieces off - ie get them to a stage where I can play them through (even to myself) confidently and mistake free. I am 60 years and am getting back into the instrument - I am around grade 7 (ie intermediate level) - doing Wedding Day at Troldhagen, Chopin Etude 25/2, Rach. Prelude C3 minor, Debussy Arabesque 1, Sarabande, and a few Chopin Waltzes and Mazurkas

There may be several reasons, but from what you presented, my first guess would be that you're trying to polish pieces which are slightly beyond your grasp. These are not intermediate level pieces, rather range from early advanced and up.

If I were working with an adult in your situation, that is, returning to piano, I would ask them to go through a "skill redevelopment" phase. Perhaps lasting several years. I'd take them back to pieces which serve as precursors to your current repertoire, including etudes and technical drills, such as scales and arpeggios, so they can redevelop a good technique. Then, when they return to study and performance of literature they previously learned, they will succeed with ease.

Well I appreciate your response John. I am on my 6th week of serious "come back". I am doing at least 3 hours per day and up to now 2 of those 3hrs have been on technical stuff - Scales and arp (LH concentration), Czerny 299, Clementi "Gradus P...."(Tausig) and Cramer exercises. I am also working on easier Chopin Mazurkas and Waltzes. Take your point though re level of pieces. I am 60 years so several years of recap would be pretty serious for me.

Serious in what sense? It will probably get you to your goal faster than what you're now doing, if that's what you meant.

I agree with john. Sometimes doing easier pieces is the faster road. You may have a lot more fun with them as well because you will be able to play them a lot faster. Go back and try a lot of easier pieces and just have fun with them for a while. That would be my first guess, but there are many other factors that could be in play.

Here are some other things to try:

1) Try memorizing the piece
2) Try Backwards practicing: Do the last measure of the song, then do the last 2 measures of the song, then the last 3 and so on.
3) Try isolating different sections of the song and be able to play that section 5 - 10 times in a row without a mistake. If you can't do that, make your goal smaller. For example do 2 measures instead of 4. You should be able to reach a goal within 10 minutes or the goal is too big. Keep trying different goals and different places.

I hope some of that helps

Define "mistake free". You should be able to play without train-wrecks. Major stops and restarts and grimace inducing errors.

It is rare for me to have a piece I am completely satisfied with. Often "finishing" means I'm so sick of it, I have to quit. Even if I play it note-perfect, perhaps I'm not happy with articulation, dynamics, tempo... I'm willing to settle for the kind of perfect where the audience says, "Wow, that was great", even if I personally know there are things I could have done better.

Serious in the sense that i am unsure as to how learning slows down in your 60's. It may not but I think it does. I am currently doing lots of technical work as well as some simpler pieces (ie easier Chopin Mazurkas and Waltzes)

Lollipop
Mistake free means - mentally knowing with confidence that you can, with no hesitation get thru the piece without stopping, restarting in places or grimacing. The odd mistake is acceptable as long as it will not stop you (ie upset your flow).

It does, and that's why it's so important to go back and cement those basic playing skills. Time spent trying to overcome difficulties you're technically not prepared for is time wasted and gone forever.

John v.d.Brook, in terms of cementing basic playing skills, does one want to get to the point of making literally no mistakes (and playing with good expression) before moving on? Or is the occasional slip in different places OK? (I'm not talking about the passage that is a problem 50% of the time, that clearly is something that needs work.)

What puzzles me is that when I play the flute, I don't make mistakes, except passages with lots of accidentals can be challenging, if they mix sharps and flats. Of course I may have to work on a fast passage on the flute. But once I'm familiar with a piece, on the flute that's it. I don't have random mistakes slipping in here and there. But on the piano this is much harder. I'm currently playing at about Piano Adventures 4, easier Anna Magdalena Bach notebook, Bastien Piano Literature 1 moving into Piano Literature 2, Magrath level 4.

Yep!
Piano has been shown to activate more areas of the brain simultaneously than any other activity that we know of. Although many of the same areas are activated while playing any musical instrument, think about how many notes you can play on the flute at a time.

I should turn this around and ask you what you think, knowing that you already know the answer.

Occasional wrong notes aren't a big issue, but if they're always in the same place, then it signifies you haven't learned that particular passage. Playing correct notes is just the beginning, not the end. Phrasing, voicing, touch, rhythm, etc., etc., are all elements that contribute to music making. When you are playing pieces which are major technical challenges for you, note-wise, how do you realistically expect to be able to work on the other elements and make real music?

Thank you, John v.d.Brook and Monaco.

Hmmmm, actually, I didn't really know the answer, but from the leading remarks in your post I have deduced the answer. The thing is, I don't really know if the pieces I'm working on are major technical challenges for me. It seems like every single piece has one tiny tricky place that continually challenges me, and then a few other places where I'll start to unaccountably make errors after playing it error free for quite a while. The comments my teacher makes most often to me are about musicality: decrescendo, crescendo, emphasizing certain notes. This was true the few times I took flute lessons, too (that is, in college, long after the basic flute lessons I had in grade school to learn to play in the first place). But I think this is more because the whole idea of continual musicality in addition to the few specific marks written in, is not something I've ever learned, so I'm learning it now.

The pieces I've been working on the past two weeks seem to be pushing my ability to really add a lot of cresc/decresc to, which suggests to me that I'm still working on effortless note mastery in them. But they're of varying difficulty, and not really more difficult than any of the other pieces I've been playing for the last couple of months, and the previous pieces I think I've been able to make them musical, but maybe I'm not setting the bar high enough. So I don't quite know what to make of that.

My lesson is today, and I will talk to my teacher and ask if she thinks I am playing musically enough, and emphasize that I am willing to work on easier pieces if it will help cement my musicality instead, and ask what technical work I should be doing to lay a solid foundation for harder pieces. Also I will let her know that I am willing to work hard, that I'm doing this because I want to play really well, not just doing it for fun. I mean, I am doing it for fun, but what is fun for me is knowing I'm on a path to high skill (or at least as high as is within me to achieve).

Thanks again John. I do appreciate yur input.
So cementing basic playing skills - can you please summarise what you believe this means doing John? I can't remember if I said before but I am currently working everyday on Czerny 299 (which I believe is about my level), Gradas Parnassus (??) by Clementi (Tausig revamp)nos 1 and 2 (which I find tough, esp no 2) and Cramer exercises (which I believe are around my standard but challenging) as well as various forms of scales and arpeggios (Russian methodology). It takes me at least 90 minutes to get thru this lot daily.

Jim, getting "through this lot" isn't practicing, it's playing, and playing is fine, but it can be deceptive, because you're making slow progress of sorts, but not really solving issues. It generally satisfies but deludes the student into thinking he's really progressing.

As I tell my students, you need to find each problem as you're playing and then focus, like a laser, on that problem alone, until you've solved it. Obviously, a 3rd year student isn't going to be able to solve a 6th year level problem, because they're not equipped to do so.

So, for a student such as yourself, I would jump back several levels and see what and how that student's learning process is going. For example, I might assign them Kuhlau's Sonatina, Op 88, No 3, in it's entirety, and in addition to watching the weekly progress, I'd be able to evaluate their technique, such as use of wrists (critically important to playing the modern piano), their fingerings, phrasing, how they conceptualize the pieces, etc., etc., etc.

I might also give them a smattering of short pieces, from differing periods, so we can evaluate and work on style. Perhaps Bach, BWV 927, and BWV Anh 124; some short Mozart & Beethoven pieces, maybe a Schubert dance, such as Op 91, No 9. A couple of pieces from Schumann's Album for the Young, maybe a Burgmuller Op 109 etude, like Song of the Gondolier (one of my favorites), and some 20th century stuff, perhaps a Short Story from Kabalevsky, Op 27, no 13; Shostakovich's Mechanical Doll, Prokofieff March (op 65, no 10).

How well and how quickly they mastered this solidly intermediate repertoire would guide my selections for the next level, which might include Bach Inventions, Schumann's Scenes from Childhood, Shostakovich Fantastic Dance, just to give you an idea of early advance teaching repertoire I use.

Generally, my students present a 10+ piece recital each year. My most talented students go for 15+ pieces. This is from memory. Notes aren't an issue, interpretation, musicality, etc., is.

The problem we teachers face when working with well-meaning, well-intentioned adults is that they often feel insulted when we ask them to take a step or two back. That's not our intent. Our intent is to dig out core issues and get them resolved so progress happens quickly.

Farmer Jim,
I had two thoughts.
1. When you play, are you focused? Are you completely in the music or perhaps thinking about something other than the music a bit?
2. Are you breathing? Many times people hold their breath a bit. Breathing deeply not only helps you relax, it oxygenates the brain and improves memory and performance.

Monac
Yes I do think of other stuff when I am playing.
Breathing not an issue.

Gee thanks John for your effort and input. I certainly don't have an issue in going back to go forward and I will certainly look at all of these pieces you have suggested.
I am unsure on the technical side whether I should keep practicing the Czerny and the other exercises I mentioned or totally concentrate on resolving issues/problem areas in pieces?
I will give yu one example of a problem I just cant seem to cnquer totally - Wedding Day at Troldhagen (Grieg)- the repeat of the main theme on the 3rd page (after the downward octave passage) where the LH arpeggiates Bm then E7 VERY fast - I have practiced getting this up to speed and clean but it is tough to get it perfect. Elsewise I can pretty well play this piece. (Just 1 good example of where my technique fails me - it generally tends to be fast arpeggio passgaes on LH)

Supposing that it is good to use your wrists and arms a certain way when you play arpeggios, or staccato. Supposing that a teacher sees you doing something that works less well. Then he will want you to practice those motions, and he will also want a certain quality of sound to be the result. But you can't just sit at the piano "doing motions and making sounds". So then the teacher gives you pieces or studies, and you practice those motions + aiming for that sound, using the pieces/studies. It gives you something to do for practicing them.

A piece or a study by itself does not help you learn to play well. The act of going through various levels of pieces in a certain order does not develop your playing. If you are lucky and you happen to do the right things, they will. But you can also do wrong things and then you have steadfastly engrained things that will hamper you. The starting point is not pieces and studies: the starting point are the actions and musical effects that you are learning to develop.

John, does it come close?

Yes, one of the main points of using easier literature is that we can focus on just one issue at a time, but this is a teacher-student effort. That's to say, this is a team effort, with trained eyes and ears working on behalf of the student, and of course, the knowledge of what's needed in the first place!