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Max, you should really consider rxd's offer to send you a tuning hammer!!!

You're absolutely right. It's better to allow someone to work on valuable instruments using substandard tools and methods rather than help someone improve by stating what's wrong. And silly me, I forgot my attendance trophy!

In other words, put the fellow tech's interest ahead of the piano owning public's. That would be cronyism.

Please do, Max. I am surrounded here by students and professors who read cyrilics and there must be some who understand your regional variation.

Уважаемые господа фортепианные техники, до слёз тронут Вашей заботой и вниманием. То, что касается настроечных ключей и специального оборудования я к сожалению не имею ресурса оплатить расходы на их приобретение + почтовые расходы. Сегодня я выясню как правильно заполнить на английском языке почтовое отправление. Приму в дар настроечный профессиональный ключ, если возможно.

Dear Sirs piano technique, moved to tears by your care and attention. What concerns the tuning hammer and special equipment, I unfortunately do not have the resources to pay the costs for their purchase + postage. Today I'll find out how to fill in the English language mailing. I will accept the gift of pro tuning hammer
IN GOD WE TRUST

Yes, there is a rotary component, and he is also bending the pins to tune. Many of us have seen skilful tuners get that last 2 cents by deliberately 'lifting' the pin. I learned this from a Japanese Master Tech years ago. I spent a week with him, both of us tuning our respective employers' pianos for a piano competition. Of course you have to know precicely where the pin is from a combined torque and flagpole standpoint and therein lies the skill. That, plus experience, years of it. It looks like Max has discovered this by himself. I believe there is hope.

We can always learn something. Did you notice his wedges fastened to a string and hung around his neck??? this man does not lack experience. Please don't start doing this yourselves or I will have to buy my own wedges instead of relying on treasure trove.

How much would it cost us to send him to Moscow or somewhere for a week's intensive training?? I believe he's the kind of person who only needs to see it done properly once.

As Jeff said, he's probably all they've got where he lives.

Maximillyan,

Send me a note with your adress through my forum profile, and I will send you a pro tuninghammer. We have got several in the workshop and I will be happy to give you one.

rxd,

I have learned tuning in exactly the same way. It is actually a very precise work with the tuninghammer and it lets you "level out" the different tensions in the string without hitting the key with a hard blow. Good for your ears and good for the voicing of the hammer.

Sometime ago, in the 80's, one technician asked me if he can set a temperament by 1/2 steps. My answer to him was, if it sounds great why not, go ahead and do it. At that time, I knew technician that had extraordinary ability, he was able to tune a piano without any muters. He was a concert tuner in Moscow who tuned pianos for various classical performances.

Maximillian, in his video, show another approach to how a piano can be tuned. I appreciate him taking his time to share the knowledge and unique ability and various techniques he use during piano tuning process.

Few may not understand his method, but from their response I can also observe and say that they have no idea what they're doing themselves. Instead of negative comments, I would rather see a video recording to how they approach piano tuning (with commentaries). It will be interesting to compare.

Loren:

Are you suggesting that we somehow protect Max's customers from themselves?

No mutes at all? Not even when tuning the initial string of a unison?



It appears he is using a wrench that affords no leverage at all to bend/twist a tuning pin rather than turn it. Maybe you can tell us why you appreciate that? Is trying to instruct him on better techniques somehow wrong, you're saying?



Well there you have it! Those who use correct tools and pin setting techniques have no idea what they're doing themselves. I guess that settles it.

Unfortunately he might be the only tuner in the area and any that have to come from a long way charge mileage.

I only watched about 20 seconds and had to stop it.

Jay's Piano Tuning Service

While I cannot answer for pianoxxi, what he seems to me to be saying is that there are people on this forum who don't know the half of it.

These people make themselves known by their gratuitous judgements. (anybody, when making a judgement of anybody else says more about themselves that the person they think they are judging), think about it!!. Look at the last few judgemental statements on this thread, they are mainly telling us of their lack of experience, in other words, what they don't know, or what they mistakenly think is the only way..

Alfred Howe wrote a book, Scientific Piano Tuning and Servicing, an American publication, I believe, from the '30's. In it, he devoted a couple of pages to tuning without wedges.

There is a famous woodcut from the 1840's of a diminutive but portly piano tuner in a frock coat reaching up to tune a very tall upright. We've all seen it, those of us that take an interest in our history. I can't find it on the web, just now but I'll look for it. I'm sure most of you know the one I mean, it's in a lot of books. In this woodcut, he is tuning with a T-hammer and I don't see any wedges, do you?

I can tune without wedges, I practiced it when I read it in Howes' book, I rarely use it today, just the odd unison correction and such.
Its just a matter of following the string that's moving in pitch. Takes practice, though, and is a good excercise. Another excercise is to sound the note a half step (or whole step) below the unison or octave you are tuning simultaneously with the note you are tuning. You will be surprised how much more clearly You can fine tune an unison or octave with this other sound going on.

One of my teachers, a well respected concert tuner in London, told me he was taught to tune with a T hammer.
When I was a professional musician, the tuner at most of the studios and theatres I worked in regularly tuned with a T-hammer, uprights and grands, and used only single wedges between the unisons. He did a solid job, those pianos got hammered for hours on end and stayed in tune. This was in the 1960's. I only saw him use a lever once this was on a small new upright that was known for it's tight pins

So far I haven't heard Max tune what we are pleased to call a good unison. That doesn't mean he can't, or doesnt care to, (I've known 2 tuners, both in major cities, who deliberately tune loose unisons and are never short of work. Do they know something I don't? they are not stupid people.

Max is tuning with something that behaves like a T-hammer but with the advantage of added leverage should it be needed


I saw a rotational movement in the first tuning manipulation of his tool and, when he let go, the shaft did not spring back up as it would have done had he flagpoled excessively. It did later in the video, though.

We are taught to support the lever with our thumb to prevent flagpoling. This is assuming that the flagpole set of the pin is optimal or 'correct'- it may not be. We are taught to ignore the flagpoling tendency of the pin. I say that we ignore anything at our peril. Many tuners bang on the keys brutally in tuning, this is totally unnecessary if the flagpole tendency is taken into account and used to your advantage. It's going to flagpole somewhat anyway, none of us is so good that it doesn't., at least, I haven't seen any.

I have had the privelige of working with both types of tuner and many that manipulate the lever in such a way that encompasses both methods., (I'm talking of tuners constantly involved in concert work). Neither way is 'Better' but give me the one less wearing on the ears and body in general.

None of this is a question of good/bad, black/white, it's just merely different.

I have in my posession 2 pianos that are 100 years old. I know they have been subject to this lifting technique and T hammer technique I spoke of in my last posting. Both pin blocks are no different that any other piano that age. Very nice to tune, whichever method I use.

Do you give yourself a choice of many different approaches to tuning, -You don't know the half of it.

Thanks, pianosxxi and you guys who came out of the woodwork on this subject.

There's more.

Oh, I tried to tune a piano in halfsteps years ago purely by melodic interval, I failed miserably.

I'm going to try it again, though, just in the temperament octave. Who knows what I've developed in the last 50 years.

I tune melodically by halfsteps in the high treble on a pitch raise, I do it first, before the middle treble so theres less flattening by tuning the high treble in sequence. I have a tendency to go sharp, but on a pitch raise, that's a good thing.

Ever tried it?--You don't kno..............

RXD:

Yes, I agree. Those that think they know it all should listen to us that really do!

Jeff.
I only know what I know.
What I don't know, I can't be responsible for. Startng with my astonishing lack of ability to put them little emoticons on my posts.

That's right. And "people on this forum who don't know the half of it" can't be responsible for what they don't know either.

The emoticons are simple. Click on "Switch to Full Reply Screen" and then the smiley face. There will be a selection to choose from. The ones you use more often will be easy to remember. Like if you type : and right after ) you get

My point exactly.

I'm familiar with them just can't get the yellow fancy ones to work on an iPhone. Oh. I get it. It doesn' t convert to the yellow one till I go to preview post.

Thanks. Jeff. Something else for me to play with while I'm away from home.

Jeff, my post is pretty easy to read; you know what I'm saying.

With this in mind, one should understand the following:
The meaning of correct tools can at times be questionable. Especially when using the L shape tool, that create much more unnecessary bendings on the pin and pinblock than T shape.
If techs cannot explain why their technique is better or give an explanation why Max's technique is wrong. I have to come to one conclusion, they are likely have know idea what they are doing themselves.



Unfortunately, this statement is incorrect. The T shape tuning hammer (wrench) gives you leverage and can bend and twist tuning pins, whatever you want and in any motion under precise control.
Nothing is wrong with sharing your special techniques to fellow piano technicians.