Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Who's Online Now
144 registered members (anotherscott, APassionatePianist, agraffe, Alex Hutor, AaronSF, ando, ASR, atcsam, astrotoy, 34 invisible), 1,672 guests, and 5 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4
Re: Ritmuller vs yamaha [Re: Sherrymm79] #1766211
10/07/11 12:46 AM
10/07/11 12:46 AM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,905
SoCal
Plowboy Offline

2000 Post Club Member
Plowboy  Offline

2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,905
SoCal
The U1 was some old neglected piano. Probably detuned!

It was a piano liquidator operation. He had a bunch of stuff from closed dealerships in the midwest. He was pushing Perzinas and a bunch of stencils. Strangely enough, the piano I liked the best there, was this hideously painted blue Starr baby grand.


Gary
Essex EUP-111 at the mountains
W. Hoffmann T-122 at the beach
Piano & Music Gifts & Accessories (570)
Piano accessories and music gift items
Re: Ritmuller vs yamaha [Re: Sherrymm79] #1766212
10/07/11 12:50 AM
10/07/11 12:50 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,433
Surrey, B.C.
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Norbert  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,433
Surrey, B.C.
I vividly remember a headline article about 15 years ago in the "Frankfurter Allgemeine", a major German newspaper, addressing the purported differences between some Germany's top piano makers.

The article started with the question:
"Hoerst Du den Unterschied"? [do you hear the difference?]

After 2 long pages, the conclusion was that few if any people can hear the difference and when they *do* - or *think* they do - it had nothing to do with quality of the instrument.

Now Tur asking, IMHO hits the point:

"So how does that salesperson in your words "make a credible case" for Ritmuller quality being much better than Yamaha U-3 quality? I don't know. You tell me".

Perhaps he can't.

But nor could the Yamaha dealer.

Or could he?

We already know [and agree..] both pianos sound very nice.

What then could one say on a fact based comparative basis re the "quality" of these two pianos?

Either one of the pianos is built better - or it isn't.

In other words, which one is lacking something the other one doen't - vice versa?

Without a clear answer *no answer at all* - may be best?

Norbert

Last edited by Norbert; 10/07/11 01:04 AM.

www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642
Re: Ritmuller vs yamaha [Re: Sherrymm79] #1766233
10/07/11 01:34 AM
10/07/11 01:34 AM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 79
Alberta, Canada
M
MetalMan Offline
Full Member
MetalMan  Offline
Full Member
M

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 79
Alberta, Canada
Sherrymm79, I grew up playing on a U1. My parents had the foresight to buy it before I was born. Most other kids in my area were subjected to clanky Heinztmans or worse (although I've seen some awesome reconditioned ones since).

I've played dozens of U1 and U3 pianos, and found that the difference between the two varies considerably with vintage. I had a U1H (~1978-80 or so) a few years ago, and I currently own a U1D (~1972). The U1H was a gray market instrument with a boring bass, stunning tenor - mezzo range and sparkling treble. A great piano for Debussy. It had the stereotypical Yamaha tone, but it was also ridiculously unstable with respect to tuning stability. The U1D was intended for this market and withstood a move across town in -40 C/F move and a subsequent 18 months of 20 to 60% humidity in a new house with very little effect on its state of tune (no dampp chaser either).

My relatives all have the U1 as well (varying vintages); in my experience, if they're seasoned for this market, they hold their tune really well. The U1D does not sound like any of the others. It is much darker and warmer sounding, very un-Yamaha. I would take the bass on this instrument over a new U3 any day. I can see how someone could mistake the tone for that of a Steinway upright. This isn't just my piano either, my parents have the same model and it has the same characteristics.

I haven't played a Ritmuller, although I'm sure they're fine instruments. I have been suspicious of the tuning stability of the Chinese and Korean made instruments in the past, but I will admit that my experience with them is at least 5 years out of date, so perhaps they're as good as Yamaha now.

Tuning stability is of critical importance here. If you have even the slightest reservation about the stability of the Ritmuller, go for the Yamaha.

Best of luck!

Re: Ritmuller vs yamaha [Re: Sherrymm79] #1766267
10/07/11 03:41 AM
10/07/11 03:41 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,676
P
PassingBy Offline
1000 Post Club Member
PassingBy  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,676
MetalMan, you are very right indeed on this point!

Re: Ritmuller vs yamaha [Re: Norbert] #1766363
10/07/11 09:43 AM
10/07/11 09:43 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,963
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Steve Cohen  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,963
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Originally Posted by Norbert

What then could one say on a fact based comparative basis re the "quality" of these two pianos?

Either one of the pianos is built better - or it isn't.

In other words, which one is lacking something the other one doen't - vice versa?

Without a clear answer *no answer at all* - may be best?

Norbert


Perhaps part of the answer should be that Yamaha has been making the U1 for over 50 years. They have an outstanding track record, and Yamaha extensively stocks parts for their models in the US. Also, Yamaha has an outstanding reputation for standing behind their products and providing excellent consumer and dealer support.

This isn't to say that Ritmuller is not a good piano or a good value, but being time-tested and having an extensive history of stability, service, etc. are still factors that shoppers should seriously take into consideration.

In many "newer" brands the advantage of thier lower selling price should be weighed against the higher risk that potential owners assume. And their should add calculate the "cost" over the expected lifttime of ownership.

Fortunately, based on the quality of the construction of those newer brands, ritmuller included, the risk is relatively low.

Time will tell.





Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.
Re: Ritmuller vs yamaha [Re: Sherrymm79] #1766377
10/07/11 10:29 AM
10/07/11 10:29 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 319
Omaha, NE
A
adamp88 Offline
Full Member
adamp88  Offline
Full Member
A

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 319
Omaha, NE
I've had my Ritmuller UH121R for just a little over 2 years now (bought it from Russell, actually), and I still find myself falling in love with its tone and musicality. It has a depth and subtlety of tone that quite frankly I just don't find in most other uprights of it's size and/or price. I did have some concerns with tuning stability in the first year of ownership, but the piano has since stabilized (as has the humidity control in its home, which probably was the greatest contributing factor to stability in the first place).

I have very limited experience with the Yamaha U1 or U3 (played a U3 a couple times but didn't find the experience particularly compelling - but a couple times for 5 minutes doesn't exactly produce a well-informed opinion), but if I was going to buy an upright all over again - and I've played a lot more of the Ritmuller's peers since owning mine - I'd buy the Ritmuller again.

Last edited by adamp88; 10/07/11 10:30 AM.

Adam Schulte-Bukowinski, RPT
Piano Technician, University of Nebraska-Lincoln
ASB Piano Service
Re: Ritmuller vs yamaha [Re: MetalMan] #1766388
10/07/11 10:47 AM
10/07/11 10:47 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 654
Hudson, FL
H
Hop Offline
500 Post Club Member
Hop  Offline
500 Post Club Member
H

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 654
Hudson, FL
Originally Posted by MetalMan
...It had the stereotypical Yamaha tone, but it was also ridiculously unstable with respect to tuning stability.
...My relatives all have the U1 as well (varying vintages); in my experience, if they're seasoned for this market, they hold their tune really well. The U1D does not sound like any of the others. It is much darker and warmer sounding, very un-Yamaha.
...I have been suspicious of the tuning stability of the Chinese and Korean made instruments in the past, but I will admit that my experience with them is at least 5 years out of date, so perhaps they're as good as Yamaha now.
...Tuning stability is of critical importance here. If you have even the slightest reservation about the stability of the Ritmuller, go for the Yamaha.


I think MetalMan is getting to the heart of the issue of quality. Touch and tone are the two aspects that define quality for me (appearance too, but that's a more straightforward issue). For tone, the ability to tune (including issues of false beats), the stability of the tune, and the quality of the tone (here we get subjective), and the stability of the quality of the tone seem to be at issue.

For touch, the appeal (mostly? subjective), the stability of the touch over time seem important.

Assuming a regular measurement of these over a long time period, say 20 years, perhaps we would know which pianos are of the highest quality. But the information would be too late to be helpful. Perhaps it is possible to inspect the piece parts and assembly to make an educated estimate.

Hop


HG178, Roland FP-5, Casio PX 130
Re: Ritmuller vs yamaha [Re: Sherrymm79] #1766401
10/07/11 11:24 AM
10/07/11 11:24 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,433
Surrey, B.C.
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Norbert  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,433
Surrey, B.C.
I think these are all reasonable observations.

What they do not tell a buyer however, is how pianos of same current productions really compare "quality-wise" especially when it comes to latest, up-to-date production of models in same or similar class.

For me it's been interesting to listen to the likes like Udo Steingraeber who recently referred to some Kayserburg pianos his company is co-opting with as "scary"

It's interesting when factors such as grey-sand casting, Renner hammers, and other high end features are pointed out as hallmark of some high end pianos but when lower strata pianos adopt same, it's becoming quickly discounted.

Not that components by themselves make a premium piano of course, but it can certainly show a manufacturer's intent

One also can't go back 5-10 years to compare a Kia of that vintage to a present day Toyota nor is "track record" a totally conclusive issue.

Let's not forget that Fazioli has only a "track record" of about 25 years with some other makers inventions such as carbon-fibre actions,etc even less....

Personally I have come to believe that tone & touch of a piano is the ultimate give away or factor to be considered.

Again ,we're not talking high end concert type grands but everyday type pianos.

In my mind it's hard to skid around this: once you like a piano's tone & touch everything else can only be based on individual assessment and opinion.

It'll be a hard thing to measure or extrapolate "quality" as an independent entity from there.

Perhaps it time to have some mutual respect rather than propagating a sense of endless superiority. It's obviously becoming a mixed bag with blurred boundaries out there leading to many new opportunities for consumers today.

There are no longer "winners" or "loosers" - only "choosers".

You'll be the judge!

Norbert smile

Last edited by Norbert; 10/07/11 03:03 PM.

www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642
Re: Ritmuller vs yamaha [Re: Norbert] #1766569
10/07/11 06:08 PM
10/07/11 06:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,439
torrance, CA
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member
turandot  Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,439
torrance, CA
Originally Posted by Norbert

Now Tur asking, IMHO hits the point:

"So how does that salesperson in your words "make a credible case" for Ritmuller quality being much better than Yamaha U-3 quality? I don't know. You tell me".

Perhaps he can't.

But nor could the Yamaha dealer.

Or could he?

We already know [and agree..] both pianos sound very nice.

What then could one say on a fact based comparative basis re the "quality" of these two pianos?

Either one of the pianos is built better - or it isn't.
Norbert


Norbert,

If you go back to the opening post, the OP was confronted with the fact that a Chinese piano appealed to him. He then questioned whether that momentary impression would hold up over the course of ownership. The salesman assured him that the Chinese piano he liked was built much better than a Yamaha U3. The onus is on that salesman to prove his point.

All piano makers operate with a measure of assurance, or consumer confidence if you will. Yamaha operates with a large surplus in its column. Pearl River, because of its decade of offering 'pure price' as a strategy in the US market and its seeming contentment with being the entry-level doormat at retail shops, operates at a deficit. Were we having this discussion four years ago, you wouldn't have Pearl River pianos in your inventory and you would not be so engaged here in carrying their banner. You know that. Remember that warehouse filled to the rafters? grin

Times change, but perceptions change slowly. The consumer may feel that at the moment of audition the Pearl River product shines, but still be encumbered with doubt about whether the lustre is only a surface polish that will slowly disappear. I had that feeling myself when I sampled a couple of Ritmullers, and that's despite the fact that a good guy in the industry who works for Pearl had clued me in a year before to what was on the horizon, and I had no doubts about Pearl's in-house ability if it applied itself to making better pianos instead of making the cheapest pianos.

The difference in accumulated assurance / consumer confidence is so great that it benefits Pearl River simply to have its pianos compared seriously to Yamaha's pianos. That is true whether they are perceived as equal, better, or even come up a little short. Just being under consideration is a step up. I think you know that, and I think that's why you're here in this thread. I also think it's the reason you're forever taking sideways swipes at Yamaha.

There is no advantage to Yamaha in duking it out with Pearl River either on this forum, or in its promotional literature, or in showroom sales spiels. If a Yamaha sales pro sought to wow his customer by saying: "Our pianos are better than those of Pearl River"_, the customer's reaction would probably be "So what?". Yamaha has achieved the status to treat Pearl as if Pearl didn't exist, to be above it all. This may certainly change over time, but it is certainly reflected in this forum where Yamaha retailers, if they are here at all, are here as quiet observers (much like Steinway retailers).

I don't think that Pearl can close the gap by having salesmen state that its pianos are better than Yamaha's. I think that's stupid. A pearl/Ritmuller guy can point to the good news -- to better reviews in Pianobuyer, to Pearl's initiative to raise quality across the board, to guest designers, to component upgrades, to the Steingraeber affiliation, and most of all, to its state-of-the-art production facilities which give the lie to substandard working conditions and slave labor. Pearl doesn't have to stoop to a cheapshot against Yamaha. That strategy is counter-productive.

As Steve Cohen pointed out, if spinning all the good news still doesn't win the day, there's always price. If his margin permits, the retailer can sweeten the deal to the point that the reward outweighs the risk. In this respect you personally are fortunate. Since Yamaha prices are controlled pretty tightly in Canada through the presence of a big chain operation, you can sweeten the deal quite a bit on any of your Chinese alternatives. Plunk yourself down in San Jose, the epiicenter of Yamaha price-cutting cannibalism and the OP's backyard, things would not be so easy. Maybe that's why the San Jose Ritmuller guy made those outlandish statements. I don't know, just guessing.


Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier
Re: Ritmuller vs yamaha [Re: Sherrymm79] #1766597
10/07/11 07:44 PM
10/07/11 07:44 PM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 79
Alberta, Canada
M
MetalMan Offline
Full Member
MetalMan  Offline
Full Member
M

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 79
Alberta, Canada
Sherrymm79, do you play the piano yourself? If so, the following doesn't apply, but if not, consider that this instrument (depending on how much your son takes to it) could wind up with him when he moves away from home 12-24 years from now. 50 years of legacy is working in Yamaha's favor, as so well put by Steve Cohen. I guess he could also turn out to be a wunderkind, in which case we may very well find ourselves debating the merits of Yamaha vs Steinway concert grands a few years from now while you try and sell whatever you end up buyin to trade up. Your son is fortunate to have a parent who is trying to get the very best for him, that is without question!

Re: Ritmuller vs yamaha [Re: Sherrymm79] #1766611
10/07/11 08:10 PM
10/07/11 08:10 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,433
Surrey, B.C.
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Norbert  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,433
Surrey, B.C.
Tur:

I have no problem with 99% of your above post but would appreciate one single statement by me that would justify this:

Quote
I also think it's the reason you're forever taking sideways swipes at Yamaha


One single word to this effect appreciated...

In fact I posted this:

Quote
Perhaps it time to have some mutual respect rather than propagating a sense of endless superiority. [as was claimed by Ritmüller dealer in this case...] It's obviously becoming a mixed bag with blurred boundaries out there...


What raised my own curiosity however, was your below statement in one of the first posts this, in response to the salesman for Rit unduly claiming the piano to "be of superior quality"

Quote
The line that the Ritmullers are better built than a Yamaha U3 is bunk.


By saying this, the dealers'claim was neither debunked nor unproven. You expressed an opinion, as perhaps did the dealer - "unwisely" one may add - but neither claim was based on any type of "provable" fact.

If the OP would have been in my store,I would have never made this type representation. I wouldn't because if the tone of my pianos is not convincing by itself, I never add things in the persuasion process. As mentioned many times, if tone and touch doesn't do it - nothing else will nor - "should"

To me "tone & touch" is the net result of everything else going on in a piano. In my world it's what it's all about. For others there may be additional considerations - but do they matter?

In fact the discussion about "quality" is IMHO becoming mute the moment somebody clearly prefers one piano over another.

That this is increasingly happening in today's world involving an ever increasing number of pianos, even among different tier groups, gives evidence how fast the market is changing right now.

No "winners" or "loosers" - only "choosers"

Norbert smile

Last edited by Norbert; 10/07/11 08:46 PM.

www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642
Re: Ritmuller vs yamaha [Re: Norbert] #1766749
10/08/11 01:55 AM
10/08/11 01:55 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,439
torrance, CA
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member
turandot  Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,439
torrance, CA
Originally Posted by Norbert
Tur:

I have no problem with 99% of your above post but would appreciate one single statement by me that would justify this:

Quote
I also think it's the reason you're forever taking sideways swipes at Yamaha


One single word to this effect appreciated...
Norbert smile


A search of the piano forum during the past two years shows that you have 131 posts about Yamaha, 33 about Ritmueller, and 15 about Ritmuller. Thanks to your generosity in doling out Yamaha opinions, I had plenty to choose from. grin

Here's one from two months ago in its entirey.

Quote

Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: July 03, 2001
Posts: 12171
Loc: Surrey, B.C.


People forget that Yamahas were introduced to North America decades ago when the American piano industry was already in decline.

At that time there were very few other competitors, kids still took piano lessons en masse and pianos cost a fraction of today's prices.

This is not to belittle the success Yamaha had introducing what at that time, were clearly superior pianos.

But it also gave them the head start which made all the difference later on.

The real question is how Yamaha would do if they would be introducing their pianos in today's market with vastly more product available.

Tons of competitors, tons of different sounds to choose from plus much, much higher prices.

So, to me the question is not so much wether "to like" or "not to like Yamaha", but how to like/prefer the quality and tone of one particular piano against a great many others.

In 2011, this is the only question buyers need to ask themselves, coming to a conclusion of their own.

Norbert smile


The *real* question to you is not a 'real' question at all. It's an alternate reality in which Yamaha steamrolled the competition because the competition was of poor quality. This is what I would call a sideways swipe.

You can eliminate the facts of Yamaha's product endurance, service reputation, and proven quality from your consideration because you can glide so easily into your alternate reality where first impressions of tone and touch are everything. Most of us don't operate that way in evaluating build quality. Most would not dismiss decades of excellence and longevity by saying that the competition was weak.

A piano doesn't last longer because the competition is weak. A piano doesn't have great tuning stability because the competition is weak. A piano doesn't prove that it has what it takes for tough institutional treatment because the competition is weak. A piano doesn't require few action regulations over the course of years because the competition is weak. The U series haven't stayed in continuous production for decades because the compeiition is weak.

Second generation Ritmullers have about two years on the North American market. It does NOT have wide representation in showrooms. Orange Country CA has over 3 million residents. Los Angeles County has 10 million. According to the Pearl River dealer locator, there is not a single Ritmuller dealer in either county. It's going to be a long tough road with that kind of penetration. You can speculate about what would have happened if Ritmuller had entered the US market in 1960 and say that it would have feasted on weak competition, but that doesn't mean a thing. Then was then; now is now, and Pearl wasn't making anything decent back then anyway. Yamaha was.

You may feel that tone and touch as demonstrated on your showroom floor is everything, but apparently your fellow retailers in a market of over 13 million, the largest piano market in the US, do not share your perspective. You can talk about tone and touch until the cows come home, but you can't talk build quality without the piano first walking the walk.


Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier
Re: Ritmuller vs yamaha [Re: Sherrymm79] #1766765
10/08/11 02:52 AM
10/08/11 02:52 AM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 6
Clovis, Ca, USA
S
Sherrymm79 Offline OP
Junior Member
Sherrymm79  Offline OP
Junior Member
S

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 6
Clovis, Ca, USA
Thank you everyone for all the helpful inputs. I can't believe there has been so many replies in such a short time.

A few more things I want to clarify.

First, I know size wise, Yamaha U3 is higher than Ritmuller UH121R. But the reason I compare Ritmuller UH121R to Yamaha U3 but not U1 is because the sales person stated that UH121R uses better material and it has better sound than U3, let alone U1. There was a 30 yrs old U3 in the store, and sales person played both of them. UH121R did sound better than the old U3. But as you know, this comparison is not fair. I actually went to the Yamaha dealer before going to Ritmuller dealer, but after 20 minutes' driving, I totally forgot the sound of Yamaha. At this point, I haven't got any chance to compare these two NEW pianos side by side.

Second, I'm not very confident about my own feeling about the sound since I have no music background at all. Just like clothes, those professional consultant can easily match clothes well. I prefer to trust professional opinions than my own.

Ritmuller's price is only about 60% of Yamaha U3. But the quality is my biggest concern. I was told Ritmuller uses Renner hammers and CNC processed cast iron plates. I honestly don't know what they are. Are they symbols of well built pianos? If they use such expensive material and more time consuming manufacturing technology, how can they keep their price so low? I also worry about the consistency of the good sound. Just like many Chinese made products, good at first but break down very quickly. I noticed that there are a few Ritmuller dealers posted in this thread. I would like to hear more from you about the quality and sound consistency.

Thank you, all.


Re: Ritmuller vs yamaha [Re: Sherrymm79] #1766809
10/08/11 09:18 AM
10/08/11 09:18 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,963
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Steve Cohen  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,963
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Hi Sherry,

It is unlikely that you will find a dealership that carries both new Yamahas and Ritmullers. S side-by-side comparison is not gonna happen. Also, asking dealers to critique thier own lines won't get you to clarity.

I can tell from your posts that you don't have a frame of reference in which to evaluate what you are being told. For example, in this case the methodology of plate manufacture is irrelevant. Plates are not an issue in pianos, they all hold up just fine.

I would suggest that you broaden your approach. Do some more shopping around. Read Piano Buyer to get a frame of reference. It is objective as it gets...and its free.

Take your time.



Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.
Re: Ritmuller vs yamaha [Re: Sherrymm79] #1766818
10/08/11 09:53 AM
10/08/11 09:53 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 805
Sarasota and Naples, FL
Nick Mauel Offline
500 Post Club Member
Nick Mauel  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 805
Sarasota and Naples, FL
I would like to add some perspective that might help to explain how Norbert and others including myself feel about the piano choices we have available today versus what has been available during previous decades.

There are many examples of Japanese piano models that are expertly designed to economize. While certainly not alone, I think they are the experts at this.

Although properly built, they were deliberately designed with thin rims, softer and cheaper woods, weak hammers, thinner and weaker plates as evidenced by lack of tuning stability, poor scale designs, stripped down cabinets, etc.

However precisely built these were, it was ultimately the close inspection of their construction and examination of real performance that showed their limiting factors. These are usually the most popular selling models due to price.

Turandot, do you consider this a jab? I think Norbert's words that you excerpted simply reveal a different perspective as dealer. Consumers are also noticing by sight, sound, and touch that some of the Chinese are building very nice pianos now. You can be a cheerleader for Yamaha but do they need one?

I have been involved in the piano industry for 25 years having started out as a piano technician. It was always a pleasure to work on Japanese pianos and the quality control was evident, but so were other things such as the deliberate cheapening on many models while still maintaining precision - interesting!

By contrast some of the pianos coming out of China now have extremely high grade key components such as soundboard, hammers, and pinblock. Some of them have massive rims made of maple, doweling of the ribs and soundboard usually found on only the finest pianos, wet sand cast plates, and such other features indicative of high quality and necessary for the best sound. Also, the quality control continues to improve (mostly cosmetic) and is near perfect now on the Brodmanns for example. They are built with precision using CNC machinery.

I do not wish to join a debate but thought I could perhaps explain what consumers, dealers, and technicians are noticing about these pianos.

Thanks,

Nick



Nick's Piano Showroom
Naples, Fort Myers, & Sarasota, FL
New Estonia, Mason & Hamlin, Baldwin, Brodmann & Ritmuller
239-206-4541 direct line
www.nickspiano.com

Concert Piano Technician, Dealer, and Pianist
Re: Ritmuller vs yamaha [Re: Sherrymm79] #1766829
10/08/11 10:09 AM
10/08/11 10:09 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,439
torrance, CA
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member
turandot  Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,439
torrance, CA

I actually went to the Yamaha dealer before going to Ritmuller dealer, but after 20 minutes' driving, I totally forgot the sound of Yamaha.


It happens. Welcome to the club! grin It's hard to maintain focus at a showroom. It will ehlp if you spend longer with a piano and develop a set routine for evaluation that you use on each piano you try.

Second, I'm not very confident about my own feeling about the sound since I have no music background at all. Just like clothes, those professional consultant can easily match clothes well. I prefer to trust professional opinions than my own.

If you like the sound of the Ritmuller better, you will enjoy it more. Don't be afraid of your own taste. There is no universal agreement on what the best sound is. The Ritmullers have a nice tone with quite a bit of color. No shame in that. U'3 tone has a lot of depth and percussive vitality. No shame in that either. Trust yourself on sound.

Ritmuller's price is only about 60% of Yamaha U3. But the quality is my biggest concern. I was told Ritmuller uses Renner hammers and CNC processed cast iron plates. I honestly don't know what they are. Are they symbols of well built pianos? all.

Renner hammers are a sign that the manufacturer feels that Renner provides a better option than the hammers that it can provide from its own parts inventory for that particular model. There are several Ritmuller vertical models that include Renner hammers including the 118 and the 132. I believe all such models have the suffix R after the model number. There are many indications that Pearl River is focusing very much on quality of overall design in these new models.

CNC machining of a plate is neither a symbol of high quality. or low quality. Much more important is the design of the plate in relation to the other design factors in the piano.

On the price difference, Yamaha makes the U-3 in Japan. Everything in Japan is expensive. However, you can probably get a lower price on a U-3 in your local market than anywhere else in the USA.

Pearl River makes its pianos in China. Virtually everything is cheaper there. The new Ritmullers are also unproven in terms of track record for longevity. There's absolutely no reason to think they will not endure, but without a track record, discounts from so-called list price tend to be larger. You have two Ritmuller dealers in your area. You could probably do very well on price.

Steve Cohen gives you good advice.







Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier
Re: Ritmuller vs yamaha [Re: Sherrymm79] #1766844
10/08/11 11:04 AM
10/08/11 11:04 AM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 22
G
Ginster6 Offline
Full Member
Ginster6  Offline
Full Member
G

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 22
wow... this thead is sounding like mines..
My word of advise. even though I am not a expert or pro...

GO WITH THE ONE THAT SOUND BETTER.

Thats how I end up with a Hailun, and alot of $$$ left in my pocket.

Last edited by Ginster6; 10/08/11 11:05 AM.

------------------------------
A guy that does not know how to play piano, but is on PianoWorld.com

Re: Ritmuller vs yamaha [Re: Sherrymm79] #1766861
10/08/11 12:20 PM
10/08/11 12:20 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,433
Surrey, B.C.
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Norbert  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,433
Surrey, B.C.
Tur:

Your long above post still doesn't address in one single sentence the issue of how to evaluate quality in 2 comparable pianos.

If someone claims one is better, there nust be a basis for that ,if another claims "this to be bunk" then there also must be a basis for it.

My beef is not with Yamaha at all, it is a very good make making many fine pianos. In fact the only time I have specifically spoken about certain models, I have spoken highly complimentary as during my recent trip to several West Coast dealers.

If you believe that touch and sound doesn't make the slightest difference to people including many dealers, than we are really talking about nothing. I wasn't talking about marketing success.

My experience as a dealer is actually very different and I cherish the many people examining exactly those qualities in a piano. Rest assured, not every visitor coming to see us is buying from us - nor should he/she. It's the nature of things.

This is what it's all about. It's not make against make but buyers' choice in a vastly larger market. And buyers have the right to make desicions - however they seem to make sense to them.

The fact that Ritmuellers have been designed specifically to have different sound than Yamahas is besides the point. Lot's of [good] food is cooked to have different taste.

In my mind the thread shouldn't have been called "Ritmueller vs Yamaha"

But Ritmueller and Yamaha.

Norbert

Last edited by Norbert; 10/08/11 12:26 PM.

www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642
Re: Ritmuller vs yamaha [Re: Norbert] #1766895
10/08/11 01:53 PM
10/08/11 01:53 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,439
torrance, CA
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member
turandot  Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,439
torrance, CA
Originally Posted by Norbert

Your long above post still doesn't address in one single sentence the issue of how to evaluate quality in 2 comparable pianos.

If someone claims one is better, there nust be a basis for that ,if another claims "this to be bunk" then there also must be a basis for it.


Nobert,

You asked me for one instance of a sideways swip at Yamaha that you have made here. You wrote that even one word would suffice. I supplied a full post and the fact that your post references to Yamaha are more than double your post references to Ritmuller/Ritmueller in the past two years. I find your posting interest in the brand you don't sell most enlightening.

I have written three times now that the onus is on the salesperson who makes the claim that Ritmuller has much better build quality than Yamaha U-3 to support the claim with fact. You cannot measure build quality through touch and tone in a showroom. You know that. I know that. Quit playing games. The salesman's claim is bunk because he can't back it up.

Now we learn from the OP that the claim of much better build quality is backed by Renner hammers and a sand-cast plate with CNC machining. More bunk. You can't evaluate build quality from a list of specs. You know that. I know that. Please re-enter the real word.

If you would like to take up the cause of the salemsan's claim, then you should do it, but I'm done answering your questions because that just leads to more questions and you're milking this thread for your own purposes.


Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier
Re: Ritmuller vs yamaha [Re: Sherrymm79] #1766954
10/08/11 04:38 PM
10/08/11 04:38 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,433
Surrey, B.C.
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Norbert  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,433
Surrey, B.C.
Tur:

Any salesman who pounds "superior quality" of one particular piano over another is suspicious to me unless he can clearly back it up. Please note the word "clearly"...

By same token, calling something "bunk" doesn't debase such arguments either. At best it's "neither - nor"

Quote
much better build quality is backed by Renner hammers and a sand-cast plate with CNC machining. More bunk.


Unfortunately you are dead wrong on this one.

Ritmüller and several other brands also build other, cheaper lines without these features, something that is reflected in the price of these pianos.

It's also something that becomes quickly evident when both lines of pianos are played side-by-side.

Several other manufacturers incorporate these and other higher grade features often very pronouncedly in their top line of pianos. If and how this makes a piano actually "superior" is not for me to argue, nor is it my concern here.

We can "play all the games" we want, but the moment people sit down playing "real" pianos, the answers to these questions seem to be given rather quickly.

To me that's where it's really at - it's not a superiority game at all. Vive la difference, live la choice.

Correct me on this one again if you like....sigh

Why not cool off for a moment and let OP make his own decision?

Congratulations in advance - whatever piano he might be choosing!

Norbert thumb

Last edited by Norbert; 10/08/11 05:11 PM.

www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642
Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  Ken Knapp, Piano World 

Shop Our Online Store!
Shop Our Store Online
Shop PianoSupplies.com

Did you know Piano World has an online store, and that it's loaded with goodies pianists and music lovers want?
Check it out and place your order.

Special Purchase!
Keyboard and Roses Piano Bench Cushion Keyboard & Roses 14"x30" piano bench cushions Regularly sold for $79 to $100, now only $39. (while supplies last)

(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Bechstein
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Nord Stage 3 Keybed vs Stage 2 88
by Coker. 03/24/19 05:21 PM
Anyone learning from Schaum?
by Cheshire Chris. 03/24/19 03:34 PM
Piano room size
by Colin Miles. 03/24/19 12:49 PM
Books devoted to one piece
by Animisha. 03/24/19 12:06 PM
What's Hot!!
PIANO TEACHERS Please read this!
-------------------
European Tour for Piano Lovers
JOIN US FOR THE TOUR!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics191,101
Posts2,810,386
Members92,866
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

Sweetwater

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.2