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#1856995 - 03/06/12 06:07 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Singleton]  
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Originally Posted by Singleton
One more thing concerning the difference between N1 and N2: The local dealer here said that the N1 is manufactured in China, whereas the N2 comes from Japan; and that the N2 is therefore of better quality.

For what it's worth, my dealer tells me the N1 is manufactured in Indonesia. Just lower cost of labour, not necessarily lower quality.

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#1856996 - 03/06/12 06:17 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Karnevil]  
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We've now narrowed down this rumor where the N1 is manufactured to countries that contain the letters ... a, i, and n. We're making progress.



website | mp3\wav files | Yamaha AvantGrand N3 | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
#1857056 - 03/06/12 10:21 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Karnevil]  
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The country of manufacture by itself can be a new thread. Yamaha products made in China are almost certainly cheaper. Only the lower end products are made in China. Flagship products are still japan made. Japan made models include MOTIF XF, S90XS, mostly all flagship products. Entry models like MM series and MOX synths are from China. It is quite natural that the quality of cheaper products cannot be compared to the flagship products.

Also, there are various factories around the world. Depending where you are purchasing from. Maybe in the US, Yamaha ships products from places nearer the US. Whereas in Asia, Yamaha could ship the same product, manufactured from a nearer factory in Asia.

#1857139 - 03/06/12 01:08 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Karnevil]  
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That may be so, but I've been thoroughly impressed by the build quality of the N1. Nothing to complain about there at all. Of course, the N1 lacks some of the features in N2/N3, but there is no difference quality that I can see (and I'm a rather picky person generally looking for things to nitpick about smile ).

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#2178768 - 11/07/13 11:18 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Karnevil]  
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Like any other piano player everyone has a "ideal" sound preference. My N1's sound was a little too prominent in the upper register and a little thin in the lower. The first is probably because the piano sits in front of large glass windows in my living room. I solved both problems by connecting a 31 band equalizer (aux out- EQ-aux in) and including a powered subwoofer in the loop. I can't recommend the equalizer enough. In it's neutral setting it doesn't change the sound profile on my N1, just requires a slightly higher volume setting for the same output without it. With the eq you can fine tune the N1 to your room and own personal taste.

#2301513 - 07/12/14 12:49 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Karnevil]  
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I tried the N1 and N2 side by side today (leaning towards an N1 as a masterkeyboard for Pianoteq, as the prices are lower now on the AvantGrand series). I was surprised to find that contrary to the impression I had from reading this thread, the N1 action is quite a bit lighter than the N2 or N3...also the N1 black keys are narrower whereas the N2 keys are near identical to C3 keys (I had been playing a C3 for 2 hours before that). Overall the action (excluding trs) felt more comfortable on the N2... but the price difference is not justified.
Now I don't know what to do, of course the N1 would be a step up from my Numa Nero, but the action is a bit lighter...


Yamaha C3X-SH. Pianoteq V5. Steinberg U22 USB.
#2301531 - 07/12/14 01:22 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: fntms]  
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Originally Posted by fntms
I tried the N1 and N2 side by side today (leaning towards an N1 as a masterkeyboard for Pianoteq, as the prices are lower now on the AvantGrand series). I was surprised to find that contrary to the impression I had from reading this thread, the N1 action is quite a bit lighter than the N2 or N3...


They are all supposed to have the same action. Just to confirm, was it N1 you played or NU1? NU1 might feel a tad lighter because it is a different action (from an upright).

#2301551 - 07/12/14 02:56 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: EssBrace]  
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I bought an N1 as an upgrade from my Kawai CN34.

Within two weeks I had returned it. Here is a very detailed thread that describes why. The final posts in this thread are most important:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...n_for_Yamaha_Advant_Gra.html#Post2262053

Knowing what I know now the upgrade to the N2 would have been worth it. The speakers are substantially better IMHO, and it did not seem to have the Sustain pedal issue that ultimately caused the N1 return.





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#2301557 - 07/12/14 03:19 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: fntms]  
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Originally Posted by fntms
I tried the N1 and N2 side by side today (leaning towards an N1 as a masterkeyboard for Pianoteq,...


By the way, the N3 has a noise gate meaning that you would find routing PianoTeq audio back into an N3 (to use its fantastic onboard sound system) a very frustrating and, ultimately, unsuccessful endeavour. It is just an assumption but I think it is highly likely the N2 is similarly cursed. Given the limitations of the onboard sounds of these pianos it seems rather cruel that Yamaha have seen fit to effectively prevent the routing in of alternative piano tones from software, PianoTeq or whatever.

It was my understanding that N1 did not have this noise gate. Not a great deal of comfort because the N1's sound system is nowhere near as sophisticated or high-end as the N2 or N3.

If you are not planning to route PianoTeq back into the piano you can disregard everything I've written!

Good luck,

Steve

#2301577 - 07/12/14 04:35 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: EssBrace]  
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Again and again same wrongs things about this famous non existent noise gate
I have a N2 and I am highly happy with it
I mix it's sound with pianoteq to improve it, and there is no no no noise gate at all....
I have made several post already on this subject explaining also how did I mix the sound do get a really near to perfect result (at least for me) emulating a real grand
the N2 is a wonderful piano...but never tried the N1 for comparison.
So please ..stop carrying such wrong information...either there have been no noise gate at all, bnever, or Yamaha removed it during the production time of the avantgrand.


Music is a lifestyle
#2301628 - 07/12/14 07:26 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Karnevil]  
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If you are mixing sounds you won't be hearing the 'imported' sound (PianoTeq for instance) being abruptly cut off just as it dies away. Sounds below a pre-determined volume are suddenly cut off - this is what the noise gate does. You can check it by piping some music from an iPod (or whatever) through the analogue audio ins. Pick a track that fades out to silence and you will hear the noise gate suddenly cut the sound off before it has finished naturally fading out. You can imagine what that does to the sound of a decaying piano; it ruins the experience of playing external piano sounds through the AG. But I doubt very much if you'd hear it when mixing sounds, as you claim to be doing.

So until you can prove this behaviour no longer exists don't accuse me of spreading misinformation. I had an N3 and the noise gate was most definitely there. Others have tried to use their AGs to play software through the onboard sound system and have run up against the same problem. I would be surprised if the N2 doesn't do it but I seem to recall that the N1 doesn't do it. You may be right that Yamaha have modified the AGs to eliminate this behaviour but in my experience once a product has been launched Yamaha very seldom updates them.

#2301643 - 07/12/14 08:37 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Karnevil]  
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Just in case anyone is still wondering, N1 is indeed made in China as is NU1. N2 and N3 are made in Japan.

You can run the link below through google translator:

http://yamaha.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2376

#2301716 - 07/13/14 01:11 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: EssBrace]  
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Ok, I was not clear enough..
I mix the sound because I like the TRS feature enabled AND and like the result
BUT I have also used my N2 as a simple MIDI controller, disabling internal sound and I repeat: No noise gate...
I can prove what I am saying..and you can prove bad information you are spreading on this forum ?

Did you try ??
Do you have an avantgrand ?
I assume no for these 2 questions.
So stop speaking about things you don't know that does not help people to freely choose here

Here is one thread where I am explaining how I use my N2 and where I am already explaining that there are no noise gate
AvantGrand N1 + VST

Playing Galaxy Vintage D through avantgrand

Last edited by enzo.sandrolini; 07/13/14 01:19 AM.

Music is a lifestyle
#2301761 - 07/13/14 04:55 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: EssBrace]  
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Originally Posted by EssBrace


They are all supposed to have the same action. Just to confirm, was it N1 you played or NU1? NU1 might feel a tad lighter because it is a different action (from an upright).


Yes the N1, just next to an N2 (and next to an NU1 which I am not considering).

The actions are definitely not the exact same, it was obvious from my comparison (and the salesman admitted as much, also saying that according to Yamaha they are the same ).

The design might be similar (or the exact same) but the components in the action must be different, and not just the keytops (the black key are definitely larger on N2/N3). The rebound on the N2 is slower, closer to that of certain real grands, and the action is just harder, more precise, it just feels better to me...

I intended to use it mainly with headphones as a midi keyboard. But even with the lower price the N1 is still expensive and now I am doubting the action would be satisfactory in the long run, although it is definitely more realistic and pleasing than the Nero. On the other hand maybe the N2 action gets softer with regular playing? and maybe the N1 can be regulated?



Yamaha C3X-SH. Pianoteq V5. Steinberg U22 USB.
#2301811 - 07/13/14 09:23 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: fntms]  
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Originally Posted by fntms
Originally Posted by EssBrace


They are all supposed to have the same action. Just to confirm, was it N1 you played or NU1? NU1 might feel a tad lighter because it is a different action (from an upright).


Yes the N1, just next to an N2 (and next to an NU1 which I am not considering).

The actions are definitely not the exact same, it was obvious from my comparison (and the salesman admitted as much, also saying that according to Yamaha they are the same ).

The design might be similar (or the exact same) but the components in the action must be different, and not just the keytops (the black key are definitely larger on N2/N3). The rebound on the N2 is slower, closer to that of certain real grands, and the action is just harder, more precise, it just feels better to me...

I intended to use it mainly with headphones as a midi keyboard. But even with the lower price the N1 is still expensive and now I am doubting the action would be satisfactory in the long run, although it is definitely more realistic and pleasing than the Nero. On the other hand maybe the N2 action gets softer with regular playing? and maybe the N1 can be regulated?


Interesting comment about the N2. I have an NU1 but last week spent a couple of hours hogging an N2 in a store. I found the action 'too fast' for what I'm used to. Obviously it is not, but these things are a matter of perception based on our current predominant use. It was an easier action to play than my NU1, and after a few minutes I was in love with it.

I then went and played some acoustics, uprights and grands. The Steinway, new, was terrible, maybe it needs regulating and the best I encountered was an upright Kawai K500. So there is a lot of variability in fact, and also of our own making.

The AG and NU1 actions can be regulated. The hammer felts cannot be voiced crazy

#2301873 - 07/13/14 02:11 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: enzo.sandrolini]  
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Originally Posted by enzo.sandrolini
....and I repeat: No noise gate...
I can prove what I am saying..and you can prove bad information you are spreading on this forum ?

Did you try ??
Do you have an avantgrand ?
I assume no for these 2 questions.
So stop speaking about things you don't know that does not help people to freely choose here


I really don't like your tone.

And please read my post again - you will see that I was the owner of an AvantGrand N3.

Please see below two pieces of correspondence from September 2010, the first from a senior Yamaha official and the second from a sales manager at one of the biggest Yamaha retailers:

Just to give you an update I looked at the schematic of the N3 and I think I understand what is happening. Or should I say I have a theory. The inputs from the auxiliary L and R go directly to an A to D converter (analogue to digital). This is because the processing of all the sounds in the N3 is generated digitally and therefore the analogue signal from another source must be converted into the digital domain. This digital signal is then sent to one of the tone generators to be digitally mixed with other voices to be out put to the digital amplifiers. My theory is that because of the limited memory to process external signals the time allotted is also limited and that is why the sound of these voices is cut off early. I suspect that all analogue signals input to the auxiliary ins will at some point be cut off.

Also because the auxiliary inputs are two channel only, the output is sent to the left and right channels only and is not fully mixed in with the Avants full multi channel sounds. I doubt that the engineering designer's concerns were with the potentially huge variety of auxiliary inputs possible. The Avant Grand does not contain a sophisticated mixing system.

I would recommend that if the customer wants to mix the Avant's sound with other music then it might be better mixed externally with a small mixer and external speakers.

I hope this will assist with the customer's concerns.

Regards

Service Manager Musical Instruments
Yamaha Music Ltd.


Hi,
My customer called again today and noticed that playback thru the audio in of the N3 aux in only plays back in the left and right speaker. While checking this I was able to duplicate the noise gated effect on our floor model N3. The amount noticeable varies with the loudness of the input source so at matched volumes the quiet tails of the sustain are lost.

Sincerely,
Manager - Piano Division

#2301890 - 07/13/14 03:06 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: EssBrace]  
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Ok,
Then the answer is pretty clear: they removed it.
As I bought my N2 this year, and your email is from 2010...
Then, please, stop saying things which are no longer relevant.
We already had this discussion in others thread, so I don't understand why you sill bring up this obsolete information.
What is the point of misleading potential customers...
Ok, you had issues with noise gate..in 2010...
and I, in 2014, have no issues, that is for me the important point, and it has to be said and stated clearly.


Last edited by enzo.sandrolini; 07/13/14 03:20 PM.

Music is a lifestyle
#2301921 - 07/13/14 05:31 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Karnevil]  
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Well, the answer seems clear to you. But if I intended to use the AG for the playback of an external sound source such as PianoTeq or a software library I would want to satisfy myself that this issue had been resolved. Given Yamaha's track record with existing instruments I wouldn't be confident that they'd addressed this problem. They rarely modify instruments during the product's life cycle.

I wouldn't want other people spending vast sums of money on an AG just to find that it doesn't meet their needs. I'm trying to be helpful. If they've fixed the problem - and either way I won't be taking your word for it - I'm very happy because an obvious use of the AG series is as a controller for software.

Furthermore, you seemed to basically deny that the problem ever existed - you now have to accept that it did because even Yamaha acknowledged it. You assumed I had not owned an AG - despite my post clearly stating that I had. You assumed I had not had personal experience of the problem, but I had. So who, out of the two of us, is spreading misinformation?

#2301930 - 07/13/14 05:51 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: EssBrace]  
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
So who, out of the two of us, is spreading misinformation?

Indeed, we both shared now enough information to let others here judge them-self.....obsolete information compared to current situation


Music is a lifestyle
#2302335 - 07/14/14 05:51 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Karnevil]  
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Also what everyone is forgetting or didn't think about when comparing why the N3 is that much more expensive than the N1/N2..is not only the technical aspects, but most importantly, with the general consumer, the physical design of the pianos. N3 although smaller than a baby grand, is designed to look like an actual piano. Rather than just a console style.


Also, I have to admit, the action was superior on the N3 than on the N1 when I checked both out a couple of months ago.


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#2302449 - 07/15/14 01:54 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: briansaddleback]  
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Originally Posted by briansaddleback

Also, I have to admit, the action was superior on the N3 than on the N1 when I checked both out a couple of months ago.


Yes, but the N3 and N2 have the exact same action I find.

Apart from the speaker system (and I have read a review that finds the N2 actually 'projects' the sound more and better than the N3), the N3 has better pedals (also according to this review, didn't try myself).

Now the dilemna is whether the price of the N2 is justified over the N1 considering by order of importance: a better keyboard and action /(much) better speaker system / nicer, narrower design / TRS...

(I will try to assess the gate/no gate issue with an mp3 player as aux in, as mixing with pianoteq might be useful to liven up the sound, which lacks some dynamics in ff/fff).


Yamaha C3X-SH. Pianoteq V5. Steinberg U22 USB.
#2302451 - 07/15/14 02:44 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: fntms]  
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Hello
I personnally took the N2 because of the sound system AND the TRS
I think it is not a gadget but a real feature that increase drastically the playing experience making it much more 'real'
It is really important for me

Now, about the price, N2 is clearly overpriced compared to real accousic, but when you cannot have an accoustic, and you want a real grand action..there is no choice (at least in my opinion, and in my situation)

About the difference between N1 vs N2/N3, I have NOT tried the N1, but I think (to be checked) that N1 are built in indonesia, while N2 & N3 are built in Japan
I am sure for N2 as I have checked, but if someone can check for an N1
Perhaps, it explains the difference (different manufactur)

Last edited by enzo.sandrolini; 07/15/14 09:06 AM.

Music is a lifestyle
#2302502 - 07/15/14 08:24 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Karnevil]  
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I believe someone stated earlier that the N1 was built in China.

As far as the actions go; Yamaha has stated they are identical, and perhaps they are -from a design stand point-; however, the N1 action is probably slapped in there right before it ships, while the N2/N3 get the full acousitic treatment; such as a proper regulation by a senior technician. I suppose the N1 could reach the standard of the N2/3 if properly adjusted/regulated.

If it turns out to be true that the black keys on the N1 are different, then yamaha outright lied about the actions being identical; unless they clearly specified that the actions, though not the keys are identical.

Made in Chinaroo does not necessarily mean bad quality; it simply means cutting costs which could potentially lead to an inferior product. wink

#2302515 - 07/15/14 09:09 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Pete14]  
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Originally Posted by Pete14
I believe someone stated earlier that tha N1 was built in China.

As far as the actions go; Yamaha has stated they are identical, and perhaps they are -from a design stand point-; however, the N1 action is probably slapped in there right before it ships, while the N2/N3 get the full acousitic treatment; such as a proper regulation by a senior technician. I suppose the N1 could reach the standard of the N2/3 if properly adjusted/regulated.

Indeed, that makes sense.


Originally Posted by Pete14

Made in Chinaroo does not necessarily mean bad quality; it simply means cutting costs which could potentially lead to an inferior product. wink

I perfectly agree and did not mean other things, but..as you stated, different origin, different process...and perhaps different quality level required.
That could also explain the big price difference between the N1 and the N2/N3


Music is a lifestyle
#2302893 - 07/16/14 05:49 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Karnevil]  
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PS: not to put oil on the fire, but doesn't this Yamaha FAQ item clearly acknowledge the noise gate issue? (yes it's from 2010, but if this had changed I assume the item would have been deleted...)

N2 faq

"N2 N3 Sound Input to the AUX IN Jacks is Interrupted.

Last Update: 10/22/2010
The output volume of the external device connected to this instrument is too low. Increase the output volume of the external device.

The volume level reproduced via this instrument's speakers can be adjusted by using the [MASTER VOLUME] control."


Not such a big deal for me, as I would be mixing in Pianoteq mainly to get a more dynamic/responsive attack sound...

Last edited by fntms; 07/16/14 05:52 AM.

Yamaha C3X-SH. Pianoteq V5. Steinberg U22 USB.
#2302904 - 07/16/14 06:34 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: fntms]  
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enzo.sandrolini Offline
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smile
No problem, there are no fire smile
but I can assure you that my N2 has no noise gate
I simply made the test but using it as simple controler using its internal speaker and with the lowest sound possible..
Result => no cut off.

Now, as I said, I still think the best option is to mix sound for serveral reasons:
- I think velocity is internally processed better than MIDI value that is issued => you get a real good dynamic range
- You keep the TRS feature
- You keep the multichanel feature for internal sound

I made several tests with different VST, and Pianoteq gives thes best result by far

Cheers


Music is a lifestyle
#2302913 - 07/16/14 07:15 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Karnevil]  
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toddy Offline
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There is a real mystery here, then: why is it that N2 and N3 are reported to truncate signals run through them, but Enzo Sardini's N2 does not.

Either: the noise gate on that piano is 'broken' - or set at a lower threshold ie zero.
Or: the noise gate has been disabled on that piano with user interface
Or: the noise gate has been disabled by some deeper change in the programming
Or: there are different versions of software on different N2 and N3 affecting cut-off

If it's the last, perhaps Yamaha are phasing out the gated line-ins. It is proved that they know there's a gate because on their FAQ page it says: 'sound input ... is interrupted'.

Cloak and dagger stuff.


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#2302915 - 07/16/14 07:17 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: fntms]  
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Pete14 Online content
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Pete14  Online Content
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Originally Posted by fntms
PS: not to put oil on the fire, but doesn't this Yamaha FAQ item clearly acknowledge the noise gate issue? (yes it's from 2010, but if this had changed I assume the item would have been deleted...)

N2 faq

"N2 N3 Sound Input to the AUX IN Jacks is Interrupted.

Last Update: 10/22/2010
The output volume of the external device connected to this instrument is too low. Increase the output volume of the external device.

The volume level reproduced via this instrument's speakers can be adjusted by using the [MASTER VOLUME] control."


Not such a big deal for me, as I would be mixing in Pianoteq mainly to get a more dynamic/responsive attack sound...



This is simply a customer concern/query; however, Yamaha simply suggests raising the volume of the main source, or the instrument's master volume; therefore, yamaha is not admitting that there is a noise gate. "It's you, not me," says Yamaha.

For the record: I contacted Yamaha a few years ago regarding the -so called- noise gate, and they vehemenlty denied it existed. I posted part of the response on this forum. It was also implied that the problem probably had to do with my limited knowledge regarding software pianos, and not the product; in other words, the issue had to do with either the software, the connections, or the volume levels, yet the Yamaha representative insisted, 'You should be able to route a software piano through the AvantGrand's internal speakers without any problems.' Once again, "It's you, not me," says Yamaha.

#2302954 - 07/16/14 09:13 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Karnevil]  
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fntms Offline
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Enzo, thanks for your interesting reply. Given the limited midi velocity out of the N2 (I read 90 max) would it still be realistic to use only Pianoteq sound (no AG sound) with headphones (hooked to PC card)? This would imply to adjust the Pianoteq velocity curve quite a bit. Thanks.


Yamaha C3X-SH. Pianoteq V5. Steinberg U22 USB.
#2303436 - 07/17/14 04:30 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Karnevil]  
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enzo.sandrolini Offline
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Hello fntms
Yes it is still ok to use pianoteq with headphones
Indeed you have to adjust the velocity curve in a big S form
And the max velocity value I get is around 100, as the long key travel allows a perfect control of the dynamic, it is not an issue
As I said, noise gate or not, the avantgrand are not really designed to be simple midi controller
The internal velocity has a much more wider range
But mixing it with extant source make it perfect
You can also mix the sound and get the result to your headphone (it is also what I do)

Last edited by enzo.sandrolini; 07/17/14 04:30 PM.

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