Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Yamaha AvantGrand N1 Okay for Adult Beginning Pianist?

I posted this earlier in another forum and so far haven't drawn a response. I know some of the DP vets in this forum played/play seriously on APs, so I'm hoping you folks can advise on whether it's okay to start on a hybrid like the N1.

I just put down a deposit on a Yamaha AG N1 to be delivered at the end of the week. I can still back out or switch my deposit to another instrument. Realizing that I'm not giving you much time to weigh in, I'd be grateful for your thoughts.

I'm an adult beginner on piano, though a reasonably accomplished string bass player (classical). I plan to start piano lessons soon but haven't yet found a teacher.

Here are what seem to me the relevant considerations:

I don't have room in my home for a grand. I'm looking for something that has real piano action, a decent sound, and a small footprint. Starting at age 59, I'm not hoping to perform (on piano) at Carnegie Hall, but only to play classical and show tunes for my own enjoyment. (That said, I'm a perfectionist on my 1st instrument and likely would be, within the limits of my ability, on piano.) It would be nice if a real pianist could play my piano to accompany me (on bass) in duets. Being able to play or practice with headphones is a slight plus, but not determinative.

I can still cancel this purchase (or go through with it and get a "trade-up" allowance later). I feel okay about the N1, but here are what seem the most attractive alternatives, within space and price constraints, if I decide to change my mind in the next day or so:

I could get the next Yamaha hybrid digital up (the AG N2 -- attractive because of better speakers and the "tactile response system" available on the N2 and N3, but not the N1); or, among acoustic pianos, the Yamaha U1 or U3. (The dealer also carries Steinway, Mason & Hamlin, and other lines, but if I go acoustic, it needs to be as good as or better than the Yamaha U1 and not much more expensive than the U3.)

I'd be grateful for any and all suggestions. If I haven't told you something relevant to the choice, ask away.

Thanks!

The AvantGrands are the best digital pianos money can buy. The N1 is a particularly good buy among them because it has the nice action the others have--which is the important thing about AvantGrands--but at a significantly lower price. The tactile response and better speakers are, to me, not such a big deal for the expense they incur, though if you have plenty of money, they could be nice.

Having said that, I think you would also be happy if you had an acoustic, especially as a beginner piano. The avantgrand has a better action than an upright acoustic would, but the difference isn't very noticeable as a beginner or intermediate player. Some of those uprights are pretty nice.

I have a bit of a bias toward digitals, so I think it's a great idea to get the avant grand, but I personally like the nice things digitals provide: headphones, recording, use of a software piano if desired, speakers, several different piano sounds in the same instrument, lighter weight. If you appreciate that kind of thing, avantgrand is a great idea. Otherwise it's a good idea. The acoustic will most likely hold its value better. On the other hand, it will require tuning, etc.

Would you be saving a lot of money by getting the acoustic if you went that way? The usual argument against the N1 is that it's pricey, especially for a beginner. But if you can afford it, it's a (nearly) no-compromise solution.

I guess, my recommendation is to get the AG. Mainly because I REALLY want one and will be hard-core jealous of you. How could I not recommend that?

Get the N1. I cannot imagine you would ever regret it.

Good luck, let us know how it goes.

Steve

I think even if the headphone option is not a big deal for you, the savings in tuning and maintenance over the years is still a good advantage to have over an acoustic option. Especially if you deem the sound quality of the N1 is good enough for your enjoyment as compared to the sound quality you'd get from an upright acoustic.

You won't be disappointed with the N1 (even though I haven't played one). I bought the N3 in May of last year having traded in my 12 year old GranTouch.

All three N models use the same action with only minor differences, the N1 does not have the TRS nor the same key tops as the N2 or N3, but you know all that. I have the space (and at the time had the money) for the N3 and so I bought it. I also happen to like the looks of the N3. If money or space were an issue for me I would have waited for the N1. The N1 really is the best buy and Yamaha was smart to introduce that model last.

I practice most of the time with headphones so the built in sound system is not an issue for me.

I still get a kick from playing on a grand piano action and having the piano perfectly in tune every day. When I owned a C3 the freshly tuned feeling would only last two weeks or so and then a note here and a note there would start going out. The hybrid idea is an excellent idea and I only hope that other companies give Yamaha some competition down the line.

May I ask whether you are playing your first instrument regularly in an ensemble?

I would imagine that someone used to ensemble playing of classical music would be more satisfied with a good upright acoustic piano in your situation.

It is true that an instrument such as the Avant Grand has some advantages (esp. tuning and playing silently with headphones), but it needs occasional regulation of the action just as an acoustic, and the physical presence of the sound will still be stronger in an acoustic piano, esp. in playing together with others.

It is also true, however, that a good upright may cost you more than an AG N1.

I'm ready to also buy an AG. I currently own a 20 year old Steinway K upright and although I love it, I've always wished I could own a grand but have no room in my tiny house. I have been to dealership a few times now and my love for the AG keeps getting stronger. The action along with sound allows me to work on a larger palette of sounds depending on how I drop my fingers. The sound of the K, using same technique only sounds louder or softer. I'm leaning towards an N2 since my investment of K can pay for it. I played the N1 in comparison and would be happy with that also. I guess if you ever want more sound you could add a sub-woofer.

Thanks for the great and very helpful responses from everyone.

Maurus, I lingered over your question the longest. Yes, I do play the bass in ensembles (symphony and theater orchestras and some chamber music), though -- as you'd imagine -- most of my actual playing time is alone practicing at home.

So you're right -- there is an appeal from both the "natural" tone of an acoustic piano and the idea of playing it in duos or small ensembles.

In a perfect world (for most of us, I'd imagine), I'd get a concert grand from a top maker and keep it tuned, regulated, and voiced all the time. (We can dream, right?)

Based on the looking and playing I've done, I think that the minimum "package" I could accept from an acoustic piano is the Yamaha YUS5, which would cost me at least five or six thousand dollars more than the N1 (or, perhaps better still, a Mason & Hamlin upright that's even more expensive).

I do like the speakers on the N2 better than those on the N1, but I can't detect any difference in the actions, and I doubt the TRS would mean that much to me.

So, as you can infer, I'm still leaning towards my original decision to get the N1 -- with the idea that I might later upgrade if I get more serious about the piano.

If there's anything else I should be considering, I'd value advice from the wonderful people participating in this forum.

Thanks!

Even though you don't now play the piano, you can purchase a copy of Mitsuko Uchida or Andras Schiff or some similarly talented player playing a Mozart sonata and listen closely to the variety of touches and color and dynamics in various passages (fast and slow, legato and detached). Can you effect those passages on an N1? Very hard (not enough variety of color). On a Roland RD-700NX? Easier (more color, more velocity layers). On a well-regulated, well-voiced Steinway grand? Well, if you can't, it's more likely your fault than the piano's.

When playing classical, I use my N2 as a MIDI controller for Pianoteq or Ivory II, using an iMac i7 with a 7200 rpm external drive. I'm not the only Avantgrand owner on this forum who does this.

You will find that the one challenge to using the Avant as a MIDI controller is setting the velocity curve. It helps to be familiar with the behavior of acoustics when setting the velocity curve on the Avants. (You have to clip the top of the curve off, because it requires a ton of force to reach 127. Basically, 100 needs to become something like 118, and 25 needs to be dropped to 15 or so. I'm still tweaking this in both Pianoteq and Ivory.)

When playing jazz, the Avant's internal sounds are adequate. Also, the speakers are great, and you can pipe your favorite tracks into the line ins and play along.

But you said you are a perfectionist (which is a great thing to be with classical music), so I thought I'd chime in with my own two cents. A great upright is expensive. And a bad upright is pointless. Maybe you can take delivery on the N1 and trade with the guy on this forum who's getting rid of a 20 year old Steinway K ($15k in 1990; $30k today). My parents own a 25 year old Steinway K. With a great deal of technician time, they can be wonderful pianos. The treble is fantastic on those pianos, and the action is quite fast and crisp, with plenty of depth.

The AG for an adult beginner is certainly a lot more than many start with!

The AG keyboard has a real piano action so I imagine that it might not play all that silently through headphones - I don't know that for sure but it's something worth looking into if you plan on using that way at all. Think apartment neighbors, sleeping spouses, and kids trying to watch TV.

The AG sample set has fairly long attack samples and is unstretched, but it is looped with fairly short loop samples. Given the high quality of the keys, sound systems, and cabinets (not to mention high prices) this product line is just crying out for a bare minimum of 6 unlooped layers. IMO the sample set doesn't do the hardware justice, you really should be getting genuine recording quality at this price point. I sometimes wonder if Yamaha doesn't do this because it is worried that the AG might then compete internally with their acoustic fare? It's totally doable otherwise.

Have you tried any of the Roland SN console offerings, such as the LX-10F? The RD-700NX is a stage slab with no speakers but has nice keys and three different pianos that are pretty expressive, you might want to try one (with a good pair of headphones) before you commit. The FP-7F might also interest you, it has smallish internal speakers, one piano, and the same keys as the NX. It would most likely require better amplification in an ensemble.

I'd also like to mention the sheer size and weight of the AG (N1 = 273 lbs) which will make it almost as difficult to move it as a real piano. This is why I personally prefer stage slabs with monitors.

Thanks, Kippesc and Dewster.

Kippesc, your points all make sense to me, but I'm not sure I can get to what you describe as an ideal situation without investing a lot more money and time than it will take me to acquire the N1. For sure, a perfect Steinway concert grand like what professional artists record on is a dream, but it's not within my reach today.

Dewster, I went into this hunt with three possibilities in mind: A Roland V-Piano, an AG, or a very good upright. Personally, I'm not sold that the touch/action on the V-Piano suits my aims. So to the extent I'm wavering still, it's between the N1 and the top Yamaha uprights (probably the YUS5).

This ain't easy, is it?

Thanks again.

I can say for what you want to accomplish, the V-piano will not disappoint. The keybed is not as realistic as the AvantGrand, however it is pleasing to play. As a pianist for all my life, I enjoy playing the V-piano just as much as my CLP990 which features a real spruce wooden hammer action like the AvantGrand. The V-Piano will have a softer feel to it, so you will be able to not get as tired playing if you plan on lots of playing. As dewster was saying, the sample set for the AvantGrand should be better than it is considering that my CLP990 from the year 2000 is just as good meaning not much improvements over the years. I have to suspect what Dewster says is true in that Yamaha really does not want the digital market to outshine its acoustic piano's just yet if ever. Or they are waiting for their competitors to come up with something better which up until now, the v-piano is its biggest competition.

Kona V-Piano, thanks for your comments. To be clear, I certainly wasn't knocking the V-Piano! I think I could be happy with any of several choices, and the V-Piano offers possibilities that seem to be available in no other instrument. That's why it was high on my list going in.

It seems that no one has yet developed the best of all worlds in the hybrid piano sphere. Yamaha (with the AG) may have done very well with the keyboard, less well with the tone. I suspect the situation is reversed with the V-Piano. (Which is NOT to say that the Yamaha tone is deficient, or that the action on the V-Piano is deficient).

At this point I think a realistic grand piano type of action is more important to me than the tone step-up that the Roland may offer. If it were the other way around, I'm sure I would lean more toward the V-Piano.

And I'd rather have a Steinway B (etc.) than both, but I don't have the money or the space!

Again, thanks for your thoughts.

I was kind of thinking that a used high quality upright might be available. I generally like the late-80s/early-90s Steinway 1098s better than the Ks because the 1098s seem more balanced, and tuners certainly like tuning the 1098s of that era better. The K scale had some difficult angles that led to the occasional broken string when tuning. (My parents have had at least three strings break in the bass section of their K.)

I owned a Yamaha U5 back in 2000 that I traded in after less than a year for a Steinway M. It was very very hard to play the U5 softly, even after voicing. But what a great bar/jazz/pop piano it would be. The Steinway dealer who took my U5 piano in trade later sold it to a young stride pianist who loved it.

In truth, as you are starting out as a beginner, it is unlikely that your first piano will be your last. You are going to learn a lot and, along the way, you're going to learn what you like and don't like in pianos.

I agree that the Roland PHA III action is a bit light. The Yamaha Avant action is a bit heavy, but I think it may lighten as it gets played in -- that remains to be seen. Regarding the issue of color and expressiveness in the V Piano, these videos are interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0-dC7eT_Oo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0w_cUQOV-xM

I'm hoping Pianoteq soon catches up to Roland in the modeled piano arena. There are rumors of a Pianoteq 4 in the works.

I hope that's a perfect prediction!

Thanks, Kippesc.

Unbelievable playing and great sound. Anyone who doubts that this is a serious instrument needs to watch these clips.

ClsscLib,

Your reasoning seems well thought through and I am sure you will be making the right decision for you.

I am much less of a serious musician than you are, and your experience will lead you the right way. For me, practicing on a digital is fine, but playing together with other classical players on a digital is less satisfying. My 100 year old Pfeiffer upright gives me more pleasure in such situations, and more often than not it is far from being a perfectly voiced, tuned, and regulated instrument - now if only there were a nice smallish Boesendorfer in my living room...

If you like the sound and action of the AG N1 (and have compared it directly with the V-Piano), then that's probably your best bet for now, especially as the V-Piano doesn't come with speakers. I assume that you have heard lots of classical piano music (and been accompanied by pianists on acoustic grands etc) and don't hear a problem with the looping, short sustain etc on the AG.

For me however, I do hear these problems and they keep reminding me that I'm playing a computer and cannot therefore lose myself into playing with all the expression and range of tone and dynamics the music requires, whereas with the V-Piano, I can easily do that. Also, even if I disregard the sampling problems of the AG (as I can sometimes with music that is predominantly filled with passagework and runs & arpeggios with no sustained chordal stuff as with some Bach, Scarlatti and Mozart), I still don't feel the connection between my playing and the sound that comes out the way I can with the V-Piano. The fact that its action isn't 'authentic' doesn't bother me: I've learnt to adapt to many kinds of actions on acoustic pianos over the years (uprights as well as grands), and frankly, the V-Piano's action is superior to most of them, and closer to a concert grand's than acoustic uprights' actions, meaning that I can really play fast repeated notes etc on it that would defeat most uprights. (BTW, the AG's key action isn't entirely authentic either: no dampers mean that the keyweight doesn't lighten when you use the sustain pedal, unlike on an acoustic; and the keyboard doesn't move when you use the una corda pedal - and its action will probably need regular maintenance/regulation and be susceptible to damp etc.)

Interestingly, when my classical pianist friends (one of whom is a teacher) played on my V-Piano, they were convinced it was the closest they'd ever experienced to a concert grand in terms of 'feel', tone color and expressive qualities, which is exactly my own sentiments. Unlike me, they all had several years' experience of DPs (including AGs, in the case of the teacher) and only ever played them under duress....But when my jazz pianist friends (who own baby grands as well as several DPs between them; the classical ones only own one acoustic each) played on my V-Piano, they weren't at all impressed - their main complaint being that it lacked a lot of the gizmos they expect from DPs and was therefore 'overpriced'. Its responsiveness to touch etc was of secondary importance to them, and they didn't think that justified the price.

So, you pays your money and you takes your choice. Why not get some opinions from your classical pianist friends, especially your regular accompanist?

I think this guy's a genius (:

Let me also say that I owned a 1098 before getting the K and I hated the 1098. Also, I've never had any broken string issues with my K. My piano tuner is always impressed with it's sound staying in tune.