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Joined: Sep 2011
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@ Diane and Kevin
Good discussion! The only reason I mentioned fine arts is because I don't want to speak for another part of the music industry that I don't have much experience in. Frankly, I don't see where the past was ever brought up. Classical music is alive and well. It's people's attitudes about education that I was addressing.
Working on: Reworking Bartok's Suite Opus 14, Chopin's Polonaise Op.40, The Military (so much fun!)
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Last edited by keystring; 09/24/11 05:12 AM.
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Diane, just to be clear. I welcome everything about what you teach and what you are doing. No problem at all, really! I have hundreds of friends (for real) in bands of all sorts. I admire them. I certainly don't think that your choice of genre is what the issue was at all. Heck, maybe I should take some lessons from you. Nowadays they are teaching rock, jazz, electronic, avante garde, etc. in universities? It's all good, IMO. Just saying that teachers should always be the ones to make decisions about teaching. You seem like a great teacher to me. No one knows better than you about how to teach your students.
Working on: Reworking Bartok's Suite Opus 14, Chopin's Polonaise Op.40, The Military (so much fun!)
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I will continue to post the most accurate and helpful information that I can to teachers might find it useful. Not suggesting for a moment that you shouldn't - only that you realise that everyone else has a right to do the same.
Du holde Kunst...
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Working on: Reworking Bartok's Suite Opus 14, Chopin's Polonaise Op.40, The Military (so much fun!)
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Addressing the OT: Lessons are not a matter of a teacher doing something to a student like a carpenter might do to wood to make a chair. The student plays a role and parent (for children) plays a role. If you have people coming together with a similar background then they will already speak the same language - then things will go smoothly because everyone is on the same page. For example, a family with a history of lessons over generations similar to what the present teacher offers. But that isn't always the case, and there seems to be friction. I think that if "customers" can become informed, and if the two sides can get a better understanding of each other, things might improve.
The Internet gives an opportunity so that people don't have to flop about wondering and missing each other. I proposed a section where teachers and both parents and adult students could discuss things. This way those who choose to do this could go there, and others could opt out. The idea was rejected as fragmenting the forum. So it has stayed part of this forum, and the ABF.
"Customer education" is part of every profession, and "understanding the customer" is too. There are few jobs that require the degree of cooperation that private lessons do. I'm not sure that a studio policy, however well written, is a complete solution. People read according to what they understand, if they read at all. Anyway, I think that a lot of frustrations on both sides could disappear if people had a way of being informed, AND of communicating. After that it's attitude.
It is not only that people are going into it with a lack of information. There is also deliberate misinformation for commercial reasons. We're coming into your studios with wrong expectations, and comparing you according to false standards so that en masse there is a pressure which threatens the field, because we're being misinformed. What if information and communication could at least put a dent into that?
No, I am not a piano teacher at present. But I and people I know have been affected, including teachers. There shouldn't be an atmosphere of conflict. There is a variety of teachers, some with extensive backgrounds, with varying views. Is there a "right answer"? Members at large also have their backgrounds. It is a judgment call when to step in and when to be silent and there is always a chance of making the wrong choice.
In the past every time this kind of thing came up, it derailed the whole thread which is why I stayed silent. Since the topic here is on parents sitting in on lessons, that is a specific thing that is best addressed by those involved = music teachers. I wrote when the topic became general. Since it created an unexpected backlash on who can and can't contribute, I regret having posted.
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I don't usually vent but maybe it's time. Here's what bothers me. Making assumptions rather than finding out what is. Skimming over things presented, and/or again assuming. Giving advice and opinions on that base, and maybe not checking whether it was on track and what effects there are. Real people with real lives are affected, and sometimes more than just the person being addressed. There is a huge chance of getting it wrong on the Internet. It can be quite harmful. This has bothered me for a long time. This is not addressed to anyone in particular.
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I'm going to "cherry pick" a couple points: 1) It is not only that people are going into it with a lack of information. There is also deliberate misinformation for commercial reasons.
We are up against this: http://www.amazon.com/Play-Piano-Flash-Favorite-Whether/dp/1401307663We are up against similar hype that continually suggests that playing a musical instrument is something that can be learned in almost zero time. In much the same way, language teachers have to contend with this: http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&am...id=7340889415&ref=pd_sl_28uyrnfb12_e10 minutes a day of practicing Japanese is just enough time to teach anyone how to not only make a fool of him/herself but ALSO to accidentally insult the Japanese. We are surrounded by cons, and the people who sell these materials don't have to worry about whether or not what they sell works. They just need to continue to continue selling. 2) We're coming into your studios with wrong expectations, and comparing you according to false standards so that en masse there is a pressure which threatens the field, because we're being misinformed. What if information and communication could at least put a dent into that?
I think, for teachers, the challenge is to get people to come to us and stay with us long enough to discover what we really do, what we can really offer. If people stay with us a year or more and are realistic about doing a reasonable amount of work, we have time to chip away at misconceptions--and outright lies. For students, the challenge is not so much a challenge as luck. Many good students have come to me knowing nothing about music and nothing about what I do. They learned both while with me, so that is a win-win situation. They were lucky to get me, and I was lucky to get them. The average teacher is just that: average. In order to get a teacher who is far better than average, either a good bit of luck OR a good bit of knowledge is necessary on the part of the student. Frankly, I think a good bit of both is usually needed. Bottom line: at any moment there are first-rate students and first rate teachers who never have the good fortune to connect with each other due to the the overwhelming amount of misinformation and/or deliberate lying that is the norm.
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Working on: Reworking Bartok's Suite Opus 14, Chopin's Polonaise Op.40, The Military (so much fun!)
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Thank you, Gary, for finding the words for this. We are all after the same goal fighting the same obstacles from opposite sides.
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Agreed. But students bringing other people to class, so that the number of extras is greater than the number of students and everyone is distracted by their presence, is (in my mind) crossing some kind of line. Sure. The problem with bending over backwards to suit your students, at the expense of what you know is likely to be productive, is that you end up losing students anyway, because they don't feel they're getting along. But it still seems to me to be a business decision... Of course it is - did anybody anywhere imply that it isn't? Allowing (or not allowing, or partly allowing) non-students into a classroom is ALWAYS BOTH an important business decision AND an important educational decision. It is impossible for it to not be both. Certainly it's possible to ignore the educational effects or the business effects to some extent, but all the effects are still there. If a person sees that an educational decision is adversely affecting business, or that a business decision is adversely affecting education, - or for that matter that a plumbing decision is adversely affecting both business and education - then they'll have to solve the problem in the best way they can, taking into account ... everything. Claiming "it's all business" is a fatal mistake. Countering with "it's all education" is only parroting back that same mistake. Anyone thinking it's "all" anything has missed the boat.
(I'm a piano teacher.)
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Coming in late on this thread, but want to say that both parents and teachers have a role in meeting the goal of helping our kids to love music/piano and steadily improving playing piano/making music. Parents would do well to find a teacher that fits the child and the parents in learning approach. Teachers will be happiest matching with parents and kids who can accommodate and respond to their teaching style/expectations.
We, like bitWrangler, enjoy music education as a family affair. At least one parent has sat in on piano lessons along with the sib for the past 8 years. Both kids are progressing satisfactorily, love their piano, piano lessons, and their teacher, so things have worked out well. Both are composing their own piano pieces, arranging songs they like, playing pieces that have nothing to do with lessons/assignments -- things that could not emerge from either parental or teacher instigation. We did begin with Suzuki piano so parental attendance was integral to music/piano lessons. Now we are with a retired "traditional" university piano professor who seems fine with sib and parent sitting in. In fact, we are not the only parents sitting in -- we notice that the kids whose parents do sit in on lessons are frequently the ones most happy with lessons and making wonderful music. I sit in only infrequently because I work (Dad is the lucky one going most of the time), but I learn a lot by sitting in on lessons and taking notes (what was that metronome setting the teacher suggested? what was that other piece he suggested we look at? etc.) which guides me in answering questions at home and what I might be able to say when the kids ask us to listen to their pieces at home. We try to say things that will reinforce what the teacher is trying to say/do. I think the kids have made better and faster progress because of parental interest and support. We really heard what the teacher wants in the way of shaping, tempo, rhythm, attack, playing in or out of the keys, weight shifting, etc. and can continue the line of discussion at home. If teachers can find the right way to teach/show parents to understand what they are trying to achieve, then they can create a powerful ally to educate their students and extend their teaching powers beyond the 1/2 hour lesson once a week.
While not all parents and teachers and students will be well matched for creation of the magic triangle, I think that teachers should find the highest hit rate for creating a magic triangle amongst the parents who demonstrate an interest in sitting on lessons for the purpose of advancing the goal of student progress. Obviously there is etiquette and accommodation to teaching styles which is required on the part of all parties, but rather than setting a rigid rule of "no parents, no sibs" in a studio, I'd encourage teachers to give the parents a chance at learning how to team up for a magic triangle. I love our teacher's lessons as much as my kids do.
A2mom Northern California Shigeru Kawai SK3, Clavinova CVP207
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Agreed. But students bringing other people to class, so that the number of extras is greater than the number of students and everyone is distracted by their presence, is (in my mind) crossing some kind of line. Sure. The problem with bending over backwards to suit your students, at the expense of what you know is likely to be productive, is that you end up losing students anyway, because they don't feel they're getting along. But it still seems to me to be a business decision... Of course it is - did anybody anywhere imply that it isn't? Well, um..., I think you did, when you said "The customer is always wrong". Perhaps I misunderstood you, but such a statement seems to me to a very firm rejection of the suggestion that you are running a business.
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:23 PM
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