2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.9 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Petrof Pianos
Petrof Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Karsten Collection
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Who's Online Now
62 members (CYama, clothearednincompo, dbudde, David Lai, Bill McKaig,RPT, David B, Cudo, 11 invisible), 565 guests, and 253 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Kawai MP10 action
#1754530 09/18/11 08:42 AM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 28
S
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 28
[not sure what happened to my previous post... trying again]

Hi, i had the opportunity to play the MP10 for few hours over the last 2 days and i'm very impressed with the overall sound quality, key action/touch, and intuitive interface. On that last point, the 8 readily-available parameters with dedicated knobs are just awesome, plus they can be user-customized and stored per patch!

The only thing i'm not sure about is that after playing it for an hour or so i find my fingers get more tired than when playing APs (obviously there's a big variation in APs action, so there might be some with "heavier/different" action that would have similar effect, but not sure).

So i'd like to hear if someone else felt the same way after playing an MP10, and if you purchased it, did you get used to the action after a while?

The thing is, i really like the MP10, and after a recent price drop it's only around $150 more than an FP-7F... Even though i liked the FP-7F, and i found it has a slightly better G. Piano sound (imo), and was about the buy it last week, the MP10 offers way more in terms of overall functionality, like master controller/MIDI, sound set (very useable Jazz pianos, and EP1 is cool), user-friendly interface, professional features like XLR outs, etc...

Thanks!

Re: Kawai MP10 action
safari70 #1754546 09/18/11 09:16 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,540
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,540
safari70 (is that a Fela Kuti reference, by the way?),

I spent a fair bit of time playing the MP10 while working on the owner's manual (perhaps a little too much playing and not enough writing...), and know exactly what you mean about the action feeling rather heavy, and tiring on the fingers. It's a similar story for the CA93/CA63, and other Kawai DPs with wooden-key actions - I recall Dave Ferris commenting on the 'finger work-out' during his brief period owning a CA.

I grew up playing an acoustic upright, but these days - when I'm not testing a Kawai - most of my playing is on a Nord Electro 3, which has a very light waterfall action. My fingers have undoubtedly weakened considerably over time, however I expect that if I played on an MP10 every day, practising drills and exercises, my hands would strengthen pretty quickly. The first week or so might feel like a bit of a slog though.

That being said, however, I find the Roland PHAII/PHAIII action to be a fair bit lighter, and with that easier to play. In fact, if I had to chose between the two, I'd probably opt for the FP-7F, simply because I could play my funky EP riffs and organ runs on it, straight out of the box, without too much effort.

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Kawai MP10 action
Kawai James #1754586 09/18/11 10:20 AM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 28
S
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 28
Hi James,

Originally Posted by Kawai James
safari70 (is that a Fela Kuti reference, by the way?)

Oh i see, no sorry no reference intended...

Originally Posted by Kawai James
I grew up playing an acoustic upright, but these days ... My fingers have undoubtedly weakened considerably over time

Same here, grew up playing an ac. upright, then stopped playing for the last 10 years, and now i'd like to get back into it (currently living in an apt, so an acoustic is not really an option).

Anyways, i'm just concerned there's some inherent characteristic of the action making it unnecessarily heavier/harder to play... If that's not the case and it's only a matter of weakened fingers then I wouldn't mind putting in some practice hours.

Thanks for your reply!


Re: Kawai MP10 action
Kawai James #1754600 09/18/11 10:43 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,411
A
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,411
Funny contrast between the MP10 and the unweighted NE3... opposite extremes of boards marketed as having piano-suitable actions, but two boards whose actions I would not enjoy playing piano on! Unlike the OP, I actually like the MP10 piano sound better than the FP-7F. Not that I don't find the FP-7F piano sound pleasing, but I think the MP-10 sounds more authentic. But yeah, it's a heavy action. The lighter feeling FP-7F feels closer to the feel of the quality acoustics I've played. As mentioned in another thread, the other thing that feels off to me about the MP-10 is a sense of a somewhat nebulous bottom.

Like the feelings of gradedness and escapement, when it comes to heavy weight, I think it's funny that DP manufacturers look to engineer IN the effects that acoustic manufacturers try to engineer OUT. I do understand the desire for something that feels real, "warts and all," except it sometimes seems more extreme, in that these effects are sometimes *more* evident in the DP simulations than in the quality acoustics whose experience that are aiming to replicate. I've never played any grand piano that felt nearly as heavy as some of the heavy feeling DPs out there... and if I did, I'd think it was a poorly designed grand piano. But then, there's probably some player out there who would go over to it and say, "hey, THAT's what I've been looking for!" ;-)

Re: Kawai MP10 action
safari70 #1754601 09/18/11 10:44 AM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 28
S
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 28
James,

There are 2 things i'd like to adjust on the MP10 but can't seem to find how (not sure if they're supported, or maybe in a future update?) :

- I there a way to change the touch response "balance" between lower and upper key so that lower keys have gradually heavier touch? i find the bass to be too prominent and i try to accommodate by playing lighter with the left hand, but it's not easy to control (the EQ helps a bit, but i'd rather avoid it)

- Can we adjust the level of hammer noise? there several parameters to change in Virtual Tech, but can't seem to find one for hammer noise...

Thanks!

Re: Kawai MP10 action
safari70 #1754611 09/18/11 11:00 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,540
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,540
safari70,

Originally Posted by safari70
- I there a way to change the touch response "balance" between lower and upper key so that lower keys have gradually heavier touch? i find the bass to be too prominent and i try to accommodate by playing lighter with the left hand, but it's not easy to control (the EQ helps a bit, but i'd rather avoid it)


Well, as I expect you're already aware, the MP10's keyboard is grade-weighted so that the bass keys are heavier than the treble keys. However, you're wishing to make the bass keys even heavier, by altering a parameter? It's an interesting idea (and one that I'll certainly suggest to the MP10 team), however I'm sure the more experienced piano playing folks here would instead recommend that you train your left hand to play with more control (as you appear to be doing).

Regarding your second query, may I ask you to clarify what you mean by 'hammer noise'?

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Kawai MP10 action
anotherscott #1754612 09/18/11 11:05 AM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 28
S
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 28
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Unlike the OP, I actually like the MP10 piano sound better than the FP-7F. Not that I don't find the FP-7F piano sound pleasing, but I think the MP-10 sounds more authentic

The sound is excellent on the MP10 (Concert 1) however there is some looping/phasing i can hear on sustained notes/chords (not a problem on faster runs/changes)... I don't recall noticing it on the FP-7F, hence my perception that the FP-7F's sound is slightly more natural, not necessarily more authentic...

Originally Posted by anotherscott
The lighter feeling FP-7F feels closer to the feel of the quality acoustics I've played. As mentioned in another thread, the other thing that feels off to me about the MP-10 is a sense of a somewhat nebulous bottom.

I agree, the MP10 keys have a "softer" bottom than i'm used to on APs... somehow APs feel firmer at the bottom.. The FP-7F felt a bit too firm, but i haven't played it for a longer period so not sure if that's a good thing or not (in terms of fingers getting tired)....

Re: Kawai MP10 action
Kawai James #1754625 09/18/11 11:20 AM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 28
S
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 28
James,

While trying the FP-7F at the shop i played around with the Piano Designer (similar to Kawai's Virtual Tech) and one of the parameters is called "hammer noise" which i think controls the level of noise from hammers hitting the strings... Increasing it brings up a that component into the sound which makes the piano more "percussive" while retaining same overall sound character.

The closest i found on the MP10 is the "voicing" parameter, but it changes more than hammers so the overall sound changes not just hammers component...


Re: Kawai MP10 action
safari70 #1754663 09/18/11 12:58 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,411
A
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,411
Originally Posted by safari70
[quote=anotherscott]The sound is excellent on the MP10 (Concert 1) however there is some looping/phasing i can hear on sustained notes/chords (not a problem on faster runs/changes)... I don't recall noticing it on the FP-7F, hence my perception that the FP-7F's sound is slightly more natural, not necessarily more authentic...

Ah. Yes, it's hard to sum up one quality DP piano sound over another as being more authentic or more natural, because piano A could be more authentic/natural in one respect, while piano B succeeds there in some other respect.

I suspect that Roland's modeling approach may make for a more natural non-phasey decay compared to pianos that rely on the straight fading of a loop, so while I haven't listened for that myself (or looked at Dewster's Roland reviews), it would not surprise me to find the Roland to sound more natural on a long sustained decay. But I think that a long sustained solo decay is something you almost never hear in real world gig playing, except maybe at the end of the song, where, of course, the sound is being drowned out by the wild audience applause anyway. ;-) But I know how it is, once your ear is tuned into a flaw, it can be very difficult to not be annoyed at it every time it does come up.

My experience playing the Roland was brief, but what I recall as being unnatural was that (a) some of the decays seemed kind of short (perhaps that's adjustable?); (b) I felt there was perhaps a bit too much "attack" on the lower velocities (a common DP problem, to my ears), and mostly (c) the dynamic range seemed exaggerated in terms of timbre. That is, when you laid into it, it sounded like it got kind of brighter than any real piano would; or at least, if a piano did get that bright at high velocity, it wouldn't be so much less bright at lower velocity. The range of how bright the piano was (the difference between how bright at low velocity vs. how bright at high velocity) just seemed particularly unnatural to me. Which is not to say it wasn't musical, or it wasn't pleasing or enjoyable to play... but it didn't sound like a real piano. At least, that's how it struck me.

I know that a lot of Roland parameters are tweakable, and maybe some of this can be addressed... I was just reacting to the main sound "out of the box."

Last edited by anotherscott; 09/18/11 12:59 PM.
Re: Kawai MP10 action
safari70 #1754677 09/18/11 01:32 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 246
M
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
M
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 246
Anotherscott, I wish you could revisit a Roland SN instrument. In my experience the dynamic range is totally, crucially dependent on the Key Touch setting, which in turn needs to be set by the player to accommodate the weight and speed of his or her key depression.

For some, the out-of-the-box Medium (0) setting might be satisfactory, but I think most advanced players need a heavier setting, say Medium +8, while children and beginners might need Light or Medium -8. When you find a setting that works best for you, as I have, problems with dynamics never arise, as all changes in tone quality from very soft to very loud feel and sound natural and authentic.

Re: Kawai MP10 action
safari70 #1754868 09/18/11 06:17 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,551
G
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,551
Originally Posted by safari70
I agree, the MP10 keys have a "softer" bottom than i'm used to on APs... somehow APs feel firmer at the bottom.. The FP-7F felt a bit too firm, but i haven't played it for a longer period so not sure if that's a good thing or not (in terms of fingers getting tired)....


Hmm. A softer bottom out is actually the main thing the drew me to the MP8 I have now. I had a Yamaha P-80 and I felt like it really went *thunk* at the bottom. Not audible, but a little jarring to the hand, and much harder than an acoustic. I felt at the time like digital pianos typically bottom out harder than acoustic (hopefully it wasn't all in my head). I'm surprised to hear anyone say an acoustic bottoms out too softly, even with the softer bottom out of the Kawai's.

I kind of think that the softer impact of wooden keys is what makes wood keys like those in the MP10 more like an acoustic (another thread is discussing wooden keys).

Re: Kawai MP10 action
gvfarns #1761548 09/29/11 07:44 AM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2
C
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
C
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2
Hi, I'm a newbie, be gentle.

I am buying a DP for my 7 year old daughter and I to learn on. The un-weighted Casio keyboard has served its purpose. The MP10 and FP7F are both on the list. This thread is interesting in that it confirms what I felt in that the MP10 has a heavier action than the FP7F. I also felt that the MP10 was heavier than the CA93 (out of my budget), but the MP10 was on a rack on the wall, tilted forward about 20 degrees, with sub-optimal PA gear. Should the CA93 and MP10 feel the same?

So, is the MP10 too heavy for a beginning 7 year old? Her piano teacher has what looks like a Kawai GM Series Grand.

Thanks.



No Piano, No Idea, But Trying
Re: Kawai MP10 action
safari70 #1761562 09/29/11 08:37 AM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,042
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,042
Cam,

Keep in mind the MP10 does not have speakers. Someone can probably direct you to the equivalent "home model" in the Kawai line.
In other words, MP10 and FP7f are not directly against each other. The MP10 is very much a stage keyboard, for performing. It has equalizers, tons of effects, layers.

That said, that action is really great, and probably the most important factor for a child, if acoustic is out of the question. You'll find the MP10 action on several other Kawai keyboards.


Re: Kawai MP10 action
safari70 #1761575 09/29/11 09:09 AM
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 20
B
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
B
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 20
Hi Cam,

Check it out the Kawai ca13 or ca63 they are just wonderful keyboards and have speakers on it. I guess a child would be more confortable with these kind of cabinet. And the mechanic is gorgeous. It is the same with MP10 without the scapement.

Best Regards.:)


Kawai CA63
Yamaha CLP 300
Re: Kawai MP10 action
safari70 #1761580 09/29/11 09:19 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,540
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,540
Good call Beco, however I get the impression Cam H2 resides in the US, where the CA13 is unfortunately not available.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Kawai MP10 action
Cam H2 #1761602 09/29/11 10:03 AM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 28
S
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 28
Originally Posted by Cam H2
So, is the MP10 too heavy for a beginning 7 year old? Her piano teacher has what looks like a Kawai GM Series Grand.
Thanks.


I found the MP10's action to be a bit heavy, even when i compared it to an acoustic piano next to it... Having said that, different APs come with different action "flavours", some heavier some lighter, so is heavier good or bad for a beginner? i don't really know... maybe you can ask the piano teacher to go with you to a store and try different DPs?

Re: Kawai MP10 action
Cam H2 #1761617 09/29/11 10:25 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Originally Posted by Cam H2
I am buying a DP for my 7 year old daughter and I to learn on.
...
So, is the MP10 too heavy for a beginning 7 year old?

I've seen it written that statistically more women and children play piano than men. If true, I find it strange that DP and piano manufacturers don't offer versions of their products specifically targeting these groups (not everyone has large male virtuoso hands). A somewhat narrower and lighter action would seem to be called for. Other instruments like violin, guitar, etc. have readily available smaller versions that are likely better suited for smaller players. A DP action could look and feel like literally anything.

Re: Kawai MP10 action
dewster #1761702 09/29/11 01:09 PM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 87
S
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 87
Originally Posted by dewster

I've seen it written that statistically more women and children play piano than men. If true, I find it strange that DP and piano manufacturers don't offer versions of their products specifically targeting these groups (not everyone has large male virtuoso hands). A somewhat narrower and lighter action would seem to be called for.


It's already been done. That would be the First Love Fairy Series JL 200 with 88-note Hammer Action Keyboard. It also has a harpsichord and customized music stand.

JL-200-PINK_POWERHOUSE

Re: Kawai MP10 action
Scooby Hoo #1761707 09/29/11 01:18 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,411
A
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,411
There's always the Korg Micropiano...

Re: Kawai MP10 action
Scooby Hoo #1761740 09/29/11 02:51 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Originally Posted by Scooby Hoo
It's already been done. That would be the First Love Fairy Series JL 200 with 88-note Hammer Action Keyboard. It also has a harpsichord and customized music stand.

JL-200-PINK_POWERHOUSE

Ha ha!

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
Where Did The Buttons Go?!
----------------------
Our April 2020 Newsletter Available Online Now...
The Piano World During the Pandemic!
----------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Casio CDP-S350 / 150 now available in USA
by PianoManChuck - 07/12/20 11:46 AM
Brodmann vs Boston vs Yamaha?
by sdag - 07/12/20 10:12 AM
Warning for second hand sellers
by KevinM - 07/12/20 09:36 AM
Key weight setting
by CajunJ - 07/12/20 09:10 AM
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics200,218
Posts2,979,843
Members97,750
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4