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#1753450 - 09/16/11 10:25 AM Re: Amateur or professional on YouTube? [Re: Mark_C]  
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Bech Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by Bech
....thought I might learn something

Did you?


Mark C,

Opinions differ. Mountain out of a mole hill.

Bech


Music. One of man's greatest inventions. And...for me, the piano expresses it best.
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#1753454 - 09/16/11 10:30 AM Re: Amateur or professional on YouTube? [Re: Bech]  
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Originally Posted by Bech
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by Bech
....thought I might learn something

Did you?

....Opinions differ. Mountain out of a mole hill.

Then you didn't learn anything, and I'd say we can really afford to have the thread deleted. smile

#1753463 - 09/16/11 10:44 AM Re: Amateur or professional on YouTube? [Re: Bech]  
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I think there is a reason why no moderator has (yet) weighed in suggesting the thread is either off course or at risk of crossing any lines. As far as I can see, we're not actually near any red lines. Eliminate a thread simply because people have discussed an anonymous performance and you open up a real Pandora's Box. I'm sure there are hundreds of similar threads at PW that could be wiped out for the same reason. Virtually every "child prodigy" discussion would be swept up in such a prohibition.

In fact, I think this thread has been very informative, though not necessarily because of the high erudition on display about the actual quality of the person's performance (as intriguing as that issue might be).

#1753480 - 09/16/11 11:00 AM Re: Amateur or professional on YouTube? [Re: Piano*Dad]  
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Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
....As far as I can see, we're not actually near any red lines. Eliminate a thread simply because people have discussed an anonymous performance and you open up a real Pandora's Box....

I agree. But I think another possible criterion would be if a goodly number of thoughtful people feel a thread is inappropriate and doesn't belong here, and if the thread doesn't seem to serve any positive purpose -- which I agree it doesn't particularly. I don't have any reason to clamor for it to be deleted, but I can see why it could be considered fair game.

I'm not sure why you personally consider this thread informative, unless you mean you've come to see that we can discern more from 'comparative listening' than you had thought.

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#1753492 - 09/16/11 11:19 AM Re: Amateur or professional on YouTube? [Re: Bech]  
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Hah, hah! I never disagreed with the basic proposition that the ear is a valuable tool.

But we also got another (initially tangential) set of arguments (though they became the primary focus after a while) about the nature of evidence and about the wisdom of anonymous dissection itself.

#1753506 - 09/16/11 11:39 AM Re: Amateur or professional on YouTube? [Re: Piano*Dad]  
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Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
Hah, hah! I never disagreed with the basic proposition that the ear is a valuable tool....

Not what I said. smile

#1753564 - 09/16/11 01:33 PM Re: Amateur or professional on YouTube? [Re: wr]  
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Originally Posted by wr

But, on the other hand, it is publicly accessible at no cost. It is legal to post a link to it, or use the embeddable YouTube player to view it outside of the YouTube site, all of which takes place in contexts that are not necessarily chosen or desired by the performer.


I am an amateur that has posted to YouTube for the Piano Bar thread in ABF, and am someone who has considerably *less* skill than the performer in the OP (even though I've been playing for many years).

When I posted those videos, I knew that evaluated in a different context, they could be savagely critiqued. If I posted in Pianist Corner, for example, I'd expect to learn that I'm out of my league and have a long way to go to be good. In ABF, the standard is different, and the fact that I enjoy playing and play for my and my family's enjoyment is sufficient. So there's some reasonable expectation of what feedback we'll get based on where we post.

At the same time, I am also fully aware that this stuff is on YouTube, and someone could come in and say all kinds of unkind things on YouTube or elsewhere about it. To which I have to steel myself and say "consider the source", which might be a reference to the less-than-stellar credentials or motives of the critic, or might just be "that's not my intended audience" and so doesn't much matter to me. Which doesn't mean it wouldn't sting, but if I didn't want any chance of that happening, I shouldn't post to YouTube.

So while the pianist in the video may never have wanted to be evaluated on the standard set in this forum, she can't expect that that can't happen, and probably didn't. I KNOW that I'm not that good, and I post anyway. We all know we're not as good as we want to be, or as the next person who's better. And we post anyway. I'd be surprised if she didn't know what her level is, and posts anyway, as well.


#1753571 - 09/16/11 01:38 PM Re: Amateur or professional on YouTube? [Re: Larry B]  
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Let's not forget that the question asked was whether this person might be a professional. That's what led to it being pointed out how she probably isn't -- especially after some people started saying she's very fine. If not for that, it probably would have been left that she's a good amateur with quite a good technique who happens not to be at a professional level.

IMO the most disappointing thing about this discussion isn't anything about how we dealt with the performer, but that all the OP got from it was that people may have different opinions. If I'd had any idea this was the limit of what he could get from such a discussion, I would have never replied, and I imagine some others wouldn't have either.

#1753572 - 09/16/11 01:41 PM Re: Amateur or professional on YouTube? [Re: Bech]  
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I am actually thinking that I was wrong in asking this thread to be taken down. In a sense, it can serve as a cautionary tale. It also has repeatedly made the good point that if you put something out there on the internet, you are fair game.

I definately have a pet peeve with anonymous internet tough guys who love to criticize without having any accountability.



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#1753581 - 09/16/11 01:56 PM Re: Amateur or professional on YouTube? [Re: Bech]  
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I share your peeve!

#1753614 - 09/16/11 02:53 PM Re: Amateur or professional on YouTube? [Re: Piano*Dad]  
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Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
I think there is a reason why no moderator has (yet) weighed in suggesting the thread is either off course or at risk of crossing any lines. As far as I can see, we're not actually near any red lines.


So far, all this thread seems to have is a bunch of people talking about a YouTube video, and a bunch of people talking about talking about a YouTube video. And a bunch of people talking about talking about talking about a YouTube video.

So somebody passed off a commercial recording as his own. Big whoop. Recordings on YouTube get mislabeled all the time. There's no quality control on posts or comments, so I think every YouTube video should be viewed with a bit of healthy skepticism.

Also, since YouTube's user account data isn't public, speculating on the identity or motive of the person who posted this video seems a bit silly. At best, you'd be right but unable to prove it. At worst, it turns into a witch hunt and damages a lot of reputations along the way.


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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#1753622 - 09/16/11 03:01 PM Re: Amateur or professional on YouTube? [Re: Bech]  
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Um, Kreisler, the plagiarism case is the other thread .....

We Busted A Youtube Faker

grin

#1753653 - 09/16/11 03:53 PM Re: Amateur or professional on YouTube? [Re: Kreisler]  
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Originally Posted by Kreisler
....So somebody passed off a commercial recording as his own. Big whoop. Recordings on YouTube get mislabeled all the time.....
Also, since YouTube's user account data isn't public, speculating on the identity or motive of the person who posted this video seems a bit silly. At best, you'd be right but unable to prove it. At worst, it turns into a witch hunt and damages a lot of reputations along the way.

Wrong thread, Kreisler!! ha

(It's OK -- I kept getting confused about which was which too!) smile

BTW, we did prove it. grin

edit: I see that P*D beat me to it.... ha

Last edited by Mark_C; 09/16/11 03:56 PM.
#1753662 - 09/16/11 04:08 PM Re: Amateur or professional on YouTube? [Re: Bech]  
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Haha! It's hard to tell after so many pages. They start to look the same to me. laugh


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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#1753667 - 09/16/11 04:25 PM Re: Amateur or professional on YouTube? [Re: Kreisler]  
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Originally Posted by Kreisler
Haha! It's hard to tell after so many pages. They start to look the same to me. laugh

I can't tell you how many times I clicked on this one thinking it was that one. Or was it that one thinking it was this one....


BTW let's not let this get lost just because of where K put it: grin

Originally Posted by Kreisler
So far, all this thread seems to have is a bunch of people talking about a YouTube video, and a bunch of people talking about talking about a YouTube video. And a bunch of people talking about talking about talking about a YouTube video.

#1754168 - 09/17/11 04:35 PM Re: Amatuer or professional on YouTube? [Re: Bech]  
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She can certainly play the notes with speed. The B section is way to heavy handed and not voiced well at all. The whole piece feels rushed and not very beautiful. But hey, do you think this anonymous woman has any clue that her playing ability is being picked over and read by hundreds of people? I say knock it off.



#1754332 - 09/17/11 10:07 PM Re: Amatuer or professional on YouTube? [Re: PianogrlNW]  
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Originally Posted by PianogrlNW
.....But hey, do you think this anonymous woman has any clue that her playing ability is being picked over and read by hundreds of people? I say knock it off.

We pretty much did. smile

But y'know, she might mainly be glad just at the fact that she's being seen, heard, and discussed.

That's what I'd put my money on.

#1754387 - 09/17/11 11:58 PM Re: Amatuer or professional on YouTube? [Re: PianogrlNW]  
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Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted by PianogrlNW
She can certainly play the notes with speed. The B section is way to heavy handed and not voiced well at all. The whole piece feels rushed and not very beautiful. But hey, do you think this anonymous woman has any clue that her playing ability is being picked over and read by hundreds of people? I say knock it off.


But YOU just did the exact same thing before you told everyone to knock it off!



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

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