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Piano for my daughter who is a beginner
#1744394 09/01/11 09:57 AM
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Hi!

This is the first post that I wrote. I had read some of the post but still having the same problem which faced by some.

I wanted to buy a new piano for my daughter and currently I had narrowed down to Kawai K3 or K5. Initially, I'm thinking of U1 Yamaha but the sound is brighter than Kawai. I have a few questions to ask and hope to hear some advices.

1) Is K3 enough for a beginner? I don't intend to change piano so hope that it can last her till Diploma level.
2) I had heard the sound of K5 which I prefer it than K3 but is it worth to spend 1k plus for it?
3) Any other brands which is as good or better than Kawai K5 worth to consider? I had heard of Bohemia, 'Petro' and Seuter. How are these compare to Kawai K5?
4) Where can I find those dealers for other brands in Singapore?
5) When is the best time to buy from Kawai or other brands? When will normally Kawai or other brands have promotion sales?

Hope to hear answers from the experts or experience people. Thanks in advance!



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Re: Piano for my daughter who is a beginner
rayquek #1744405 09/01/11 10:20 AM
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1) Certainly. Most pianos will do as long as it retains the interest of the student. Many professional pianists grew up on lower-grade pianos. I'm not familiar with the exams, but I think the student, the teacher, and the will to practice are greater factors than the home piano.

2) There are other nice upgrades as well. It's up to you to decide.

3) See if you can find a Yamaha YUS1.

5) See if you can ask the dealer to just give you a low price comparable to those during sales wink

Re: Piano for my daughter who is a beginner
rayquek #1744415 09/01/11 10:37 AM
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1) Is K3 enough for a beginner? I don't intend to change piano so hope that it can last her till Diploma level.

Yes, it's enough.


2) I had heard the sound of K5 which I prefer it than K3 but is it worth to spend 1k plus for it?

The quality difference is worth the price difference. Is it worth it to you? That's a different question. If the purchase is solely a bet on your daughter's sticking with the piano, the K5 ia bigger bet. If there are other players or potential players in the family and you can easily afford the price difference, it's definitely worth it. Averaged oveer years of use, the price difference would be small.

3) Any other brands which is as good or better than Kawai K5 worth to consider? I had heard of Bohemia, 'Petro' and Seuter. How are these compare to Kawai K5?

Bohemia 123 and Petrof 125 are good competition for the K5. They are different, but not necessarily better. Bohemia 123 is now out of production, but retailers may still have some. I have no familiarity with the new line of Bohemia pianos. Sauter makes some of the best vertical pianos in the world. They are also some of the most expensive. Again, if the purchase is a bet on your daughter's development and nothing more than that, purchase of a new Sauter is probably excessive.

4) Where can I find those dealers for other brands in Singapore?

5) When is the best time to buy from Kawai or other brands? When will normally Kawai or other brands have promotion sales?

Best advice is to post on this thread devoted to the Singapore market.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1715614


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Re: Piano for my daughter who is a beginner
rayquek #1744444 09/01/11 11:45 AM
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The K-5 is definitely a significant step up from the K-3, and worth the extra money.

Good luck shopping.


Gary
Essex EUP-111 at the mountains
W. Hoffmann T-122 at the beach
Re: Piano for my daughter who is a beginner
turandot #1744529 09/01/11 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by turandot
Sauter makes some of the best vertical pianos in the world. They are also some of the most expensive. Again, if the purchase is a bet on your daughter's development and nothing more than that, purchase of a new Sauter is probably excessive.


FORTUNATELY, some people believe that if you give a child the BEST tool to work with, you will get the best result!


Russell I. Kassman

FORMER: US Rep.for C.Bechstein - Sauter; Retired founder/owner R. KASSMAN Piano; Consultant - GUANGZHOU Pearl River Piano Co.

www.rkassman.com
russell@rkassman.com
Re: Piano for my daughter who is a beginner
master88er #1744554 09/01/11 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by master88er
Originally Posted by turandot
Sauter makes some of the best vertical pianos in the world. They are also some of the most expensive. Again, if the purchase is a bet on your daughter's development and nothing more than that, purchase of a new Sauter is probably excessive.


FORTUNATELY, some people believe that if you give a child the BEST tool to work with, you will get the best result!


Master K,

As you know, I have a great appreciation of Sauter verticals. I only wrote "some of the best" and not 'the best' in deference to subjectivity and possible bias.

I also have great respect for your opinions, both the blunt ones and the ones wrapped in layers of subtlety. grin

The question of learner persistence in piano study is an interesting one. While I would certainly concede that providing a Sauter vertical to a beginning student would in no way impede persistence, I do not share the view that in and of itself it would provide any persistence advantage over a well-regulated mid-level piano during at least the first few years of instruction. In my own experience the biggest variable in the early years is not the piano at all, but the employment of a teacher who works well with children and has good basic teaching techniques. Surprisingly enough, that teacher is often not the most gifted pianist just as most competent vertical pianos are not as 'gifted' as a Sauter.

There are also situations (and I have seen some personally) where parents put undue pressure on children by feeding them the line "Look at all I have done for you" when very expensive tools were provided to stimulate a child's interest and the child balked or didn't show much interest..

I have the feeling that the OP mentioned Petrof, Sauter, and Bohemia here because those pianos have a strong presence in the Singapore market and he was familiar with the names, if not the pianos. If this is the case, he will be able to make his own analysis of cost/benefit as he explores dealer showrooms there.


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Re: Piano for my daughter who is a beginner
rayquek #1744658 09/01/11 05:24 PM
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I think a K3 is more than enough for a beginner, considering that I started on a spinet. She should be able to go a long ways with a K3 smile

Re: Piano for my daughter who is a beginner
rayquek #1744855 09/01/11 11:48 PM
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Hi!

Wow! I am surprised by the fast response for my questions which I really appreciate it a lot!

@gnuboi: I agree with your reasoning on the student, the teacher, and the will to practice are greater factors than the home piano. Each factor mention above instead of the piano does affect the outcome.

@turandot: Your reasoning on the purchase is solely a bet on my daughter's sticking with the piano, the K5 is a bigger bet which I agree. The potential player could be myself and probably my wife. Your question to me if K5 is worth for me does really strike me. My initial thought is if the price difference is worth the quality difference but never think if it worth for me. Really thanks for that question. I agree with you that purchase of a new Sauter is probably excessive as a bet on my daughter's development and nothing more than that. Your advice really helps me a lot! Thank you so much!

@Plowboy: Thank you for the advice! It confirm my thinking of the worth for K5.

@master88er: Thank you for the comments! I do want to give the best to my daughter but within my limit and consideration of worthwhile for the purchase. It would be quite a greater bet for the very expensive piano for me so I need to weigh the pros and cons. If my daughter really able to progress in future, by then, she can even buy herself a new and better piano when she grow up.

@TonalHarmony: I did think that K3 should be enough for my daughter but the sound of K5 does attract me compare to K3 so wondering if the price difference is worth the quality difference. So far, I received comments that it worth the price difference.


Thanks so much for the advices! I greatly appreciate for the fast response!

I hope to hear some comments on the comparison of K5 with other brands too. Thanks so much!

Re: Piano for my daughter who is a beginner
rayquek #1745082 09/02/11 12:41 PM
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taller is good. I'm glad you are open to the K 5.


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
Re: Piano for my daughter who is a beginner
rayquek #1745091 09/02/11 12:58 PM
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Quote
I did think that K3 should be enough for my daughter but the sound of K5 does attract me compare to K3 so wondering if the price difference is worth the quality difference.


This is a very telling statement. You would not want to buy the K3 and then try living with the memory of the K5. Time will only make the K5 sound better in your memory.








Re: Piano for my daughter who is a beginner
rayquek #1746735 09/05/11 09:00 AM
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Thanks so much for the advice!

I still had not make up my mind about it yet but might consider Kawai K5 as I also don't want to feel regret later after buying K3. Neither do I want to spend too much on piano as the skill of a pianist is also important. If a pianist like my daughter who is a beginner will not be able to bring out the best quality from K5 not to mention even for better piano.

Moreover, I do not know how long can my litter girl's interest last. So I would not be buying a more expensive piano for her. Now, she practice on keyboard and I am monitoring her progress and determination to learn before I buy it.

Re: Piano for my daughter who is a beginner
rayquek #1747104 09/05/11 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by rayquek
Thanks so much for the advice!

I still had not make up my mind about it yet but might consider Kawai K5 as I also don't want to feel regret later after buying K3. Neither do I want to spend too much on piano as the skill of a pianist is also important. If a pianist like my daughter who is a beginner will not be able to bring out the best quality from K5 not to mention even for better piano.

Moreover, I do not know how long can my litter girl's interest last. So I would not be buying a more expensive piano for her. Now, she practice on keyboard and I am monitoring her progress and determination to learn before I buy it.



Eventhough the K-5 is a step up from the K-3, the acoustic environment plays an important part. Some better pianos might not sound as great if the acoustics don't fit the piano.


Yamaha P-120, Feurich 122

Always look ahead, but never look back. - Miles Davis
Re: Piano for my daughter who is a beginner
rayquek #1747287 09/06/11 05:13 AM
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I had went to see some piano. Schimmel, Wilhelm Steinberg and Bohemia. The Best of them is Schimmel then Wilhelm Steinberg. They are much better than Kawai K5 from what I feel.

I am not a pianist but I try to touch the key to see the meaning of touch. What I noticed is that for Schimmel and Wilhelm Steinberg, I could hear the tone even when I press so lightly unlike Bohemia which I had to press harder in order to hear tone. What does that mean if I can hear the tone when I press the key so lightly. Is it a better action from the piano? For Bohemia, I feel the key seems a bit stuck feel when I press lightly down the key and I didn't hear any tone from the key. To me, I like the key to be press lightly yet can still hear the tone. Should this be the way? And is it a better action system?

I learn that the height of the piano should be a not be a criteria to choose a piano. He told me that it is a marketing strategy for Japanese company that the taller in height, the better sound it is. There is no such thing for German piano. Today, I did hear the sound difference even for the same height. The German piano is indeed better sound than the Japanese piano even though it is the same height. The German piano has deep bass and crystal clear bell sound for treble. It does convince me that taller in
height does not mean a better sound. What is the rest of the people view on this? Is it true from what I learn from the sales person?

I also learn that there is no 'exam piano' for Europe unlike Japan which has 'exam piano' which is min. Height is 121cm. It is
Japan marketing strategy to sell their piano. Is it true?

Any one heard about Wilhelm Steinberg piano brand? The bass is deep but seems trembling
and the treble is bell sound like. It is made in Germany and he told me that it is hand craft. I like Schimmel piano sound but too expensive for me. Next is the Wilhelm Steinberg which now my new target but need to hear advice and comments on this piano.

Thanks!



Last edited by rayquek; 09/06/11 05:13 AM.
Re: Piano for my daughter who is a beginner
rayquek #1747339 09/06/11 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by rayquek

I am not a pianist but I try to touch the key to see the meaning of touch. What I noticed is that for Schimmel and Wilhelm Steinberg, I could hear the tone even when I press so lightly unlike Bohemia which I had to press harder in order to hear tone. What does that mean if I can hear the tone when I press the key so lightly. Is it a better action from the piano? For Bohemia, I feel the key seems a bit stuck feel when I press lightly down the key and I didn't hear any tone from the key. To me, I like the key to be press lightly yet can still hear the tone. Should this be the way? And is it a better action system?


This either means that the action is designed better, or regulated (adjusted) better. The action is more sensitive, allowing you to play very soft sounds. This is a very good thing.

Originally Posted by rayquek
I learn that the height of the piano should be a not be a criteria to choose a piano. He told me that it is a marketing strategy for Japanese company that the taller in height, the better sound it is. There is no such thing for German piano. Today, I did hear the sound difference even for the same height. The German piano is indeed better sound than the Japanese piano even though it is the same height. The German piano has deep bass and crystal clear bell sound for treble. It does convince me that taller in
height does not mean a better sound. What is the rest of the people view on this? Is it true from what I learn from the sales person?


The salesman is wrong to some degree here. There IS such thing for shorter german designed pianos being worse than taller ones, but this applies to all pianos, not just Japanese ones,, but it may iother be less obvious and/or related to design of the piano. Sure, generally the taller the piano (or the longer, if you talk grand, which you are not), the bigger the soundboard, and the more different tone colours you may be abl to generate. Also, the bass strings are longer, resulting in clearer bass tones.

But, there are very good pianos in all sizes, and a well designed short upright may well outplay a tall, but bad designed upright. And, as you now know, same height but different brand/model/etc, can sound and feel very different.

Originally Posted by rayquek
I also learn that there is no 'exam piano' for Europe unlike Japan which has 'exam piano' which is min. Height is 121cm. It is
Japan marketing strategy to sell their piano. Is it true?


Where I live, the exam places use Yamaha U1 for exam purposes. But in the higher grades, they use a Steinway B. I somehow don't see examination places in Europe using tiny little console pianos for exam use. It may be possible that Japan has some kind of standard in their piano for exams, but I cannot confirm this.

However, on this, it is likely most quite definitely NOT a Japanese marketing strategy to sell pianos, I have Never heard this one said or mentioned to me before.

Re: Piano for my daughter who is a beginner
rayquek #1748057 09/07/11 09:07 AM
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Hope to hear more opinion!

I'm going to see a few more brands next few days like Sauter and Petrof. The models for Wilhelm Steinberg that I had seen yesterday are AC123 and IQ24. I can best afford is AC123 and I saw cmoments that it is made in China and ship to Germany to sell. Is that true? But I saw on the piano cover is Made In Germany.

How is Wilhelm Steinberg AC123 compare to Petrof or Sauter piano? Which of their model for Sauter and Petrof can be compare with AC123?

Hope to hear more opinions! Thanks!



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